The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 138 · 7 months ago

138. Human Factors & Design Thinking w/ Anand Tharanathan


Human factors is a field of science that explores capabilities and limitations of humans as they interact with a product, technology, or service. The goal of human factors is to capitalize on the capabilities and to circumvent the limitations to create an optimal human-machine interaction.

In this episode, I interview Anand Tharanathan, Chief Product Officer at MetaCX, about incorporating human factors into every aspect of design.

Anand talked with me about:

- Tips for building a superior design team

- User centered design: what it is and why it matters

- Starting with empathy

- How to synthesize insights into viable tests

- Becoming a first-time Chief Product Officer

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So the more you are in frontof them and observing them and shadowing them, not getting into their job, themore empathy you build. The more empathy you build the next time yougo write a lot of code or your design a screen or you start bringingtalking about a product, you start bringing that empathy to the forefront. Youstart thinking about the human, the user more. The single most important thingyou can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieveddesired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This isthe customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. User experience, design, thinking human factors. Today's guest brings deep insights, experience and expertisein these areas to help us inform our own experience design process. He's earneda PhD and experimental psychology and human factors from Texas Tech, a master's degreein industrial engineering from the New Jersey Institute of Technology and an MBA from northwesternuniversities Kellogg School of Management. So He's blending psychology, engineering and business tohumanize customer experience. He's led research and design teams at companies like facebook andJee's list and honey. Well, today he serves as chief proct officer atmetic X, where they're pioneering a new outcomes based approach for managing the customerlife cycle by transforming how suppliers and buyers collaborate and win together. On in, Tarathan, and welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you that.I'm glad to be here. Yeah, I I really enjoyed getting to knowyou a little bit recently and I'm glad we're in this conversation. And beforewe get into customer experience, and I really appreciate your unique perspective on it, and I'd say unique relative to most of the guests that we host.You're on the show. I think your expertise is going to be a speciallyunique relative to that population. But before we get into it, you've livedin India, you've lived in Minnesota, Texas, New Jersey. You've livedin cities like Indianapolis, Chicago. You're currently in the San Francisco area.When you think back at all of the different places you lived, which isat least twice as many places as I've lived. What are the highlights thatcome to mind or there is there a park or a store or people,like when you think back at all the places you've lived, like just spurthe moment top of mine, like what do you reflect back on? Aseksh I missed that person, that place, that thing. You know, it'sinteresting. I mean, thank you, as is an interesting question. Onething I talked about, which is unique in a way that I wasfortunate to be in a way, exposed to, is I lived for aboutfifteen years in a country called Guitar, which is in the Middle East.I was born in India and I moved there my that was working the foralmost thirty years and when I was living there, one of the things Iwas able to do I used to be a tennis player, not as muchnow, but I used to, you know, play pretty advanced and Igot the opportunity to play with the prints of the country who right now isa King of guitar. So, you know, it's one of those thingswhen people ask me, what is one thing about your experience living in differentparts of the world that you always go back to remember? This is somethingalways talk about. I think it's pretty cool yeah, that is really cool. Now, is there any obligation to let a print win a match,or is this like, out of respect, you have to do your best inplay your hardest, even if it means defeat for him. I've alwaysplayed my hardest and you know I did when I did that fall up questiona lot and I did when I we've played, I think, three timesand I want all the times, but it's it was just a great experience. Cool. Do you still play today? I do play. Yes, Nice. Okay, so where we always start on the show is customer experience, and basically take this however you like, like when I say customer experience toyou on and what does that mean? It's such a loader term. There'sso many different definitions for customer experience and the way I look at itis how it comes down to the emotional component, the visceral reaction to somethingand how you stay with a brand over time, time and I strongly believethe more we can invoke and stated that emotion of interacting with the product ora service, that is, for me, the experience being a user, acustomer. How we going to put it, what lends you look atbut that emotional component and maximizing. That is what I try to optimize forwhen I think about customer experience. I love it. I love that youwent straight to the emotional component because to someone relatively ignorant about the heart insand outs of the deep research that you're attuned to in the types of teamsand processes that you've been responsible for, you know, would be tempting tojust assume that it would there be a...

...stronger data orientation. Not that there'snot a data component to the emotion, but I appreciate the you isolated thatright away. I will let that kind of color our conversation a little bit, but for for we proceed too far in your view, in your experience, is customer experience better handled as like a cultural component or an ethos ofan entire organization, or is it better handled role team function? Or doesthat vary based on the organization? I think customer experience is the more useStilo it into a department or organization or team, I think it is arecipe for failure. Customer experience has to be a part of everybody's ethos ina company and that has to be a priority, and the more you makeit that, the more departments and organizations within companies start focusing on that andthat shows. Otherwise you're starting to ship org structures and not the experience.And so I in my opinion, I think it has to span across acompany, has to start from the top and has to be drawn bottoms up. So that's how, at least from my perspective, I look at it. Yeah, I started asking that as a follow up to the main definitionand that seems to be pretty consistent. But it certainly depends who you talkto. You about it and it does like it. So I mean thepurpose of the the role the person or the team or the function, Ithink would probably just be to advance that ethos and that the priority and whatit means practically in storytelling internally about doing customer experience well. And Yeah,yeah, and if you think about anything, I mean you have the marketing sideof the world, which is kind of staying ahead really understanding users.You obviously have a product and engineering organization that builds products. That has todefinitely focus on the experience that we bring from a product standpoint. We dosome companies and services. That has to focus on the interaction, the talking, the communication. So there's, if you think about it, sales organization, there's just so many components that a product or a serve as or acompany touch us, the customer at and we have to look at it endto end, and so well, organizations within a company have to make thata priority. Only then the successful ones come out. Have you been partof an initiative where perhaps an organization that you were in wasn't especially a tunedthis way or oriented this way and went through that transformation or no, onehundred percent one of the companies that work with earlier in my career we had. It was a time where experience led design and experience led products are startingto become an important part in the market. It was with how you know,Apple Bald and that whole design lad thinking and all that started and thecompany I was at was not really tuned to that in a way, butto their credit, from the executive level there was a huge initiative to kindof think about it that way and we went man that was it was amassive effort that spanned across multiple years and even today they have a really wellestablished practice there. We started with almost like a team of less than twentypeople around it around research and design and experience all the and it was,it had be to bebats everything. This company was a big one and today, when we look at how products were being developed in that country, inthat and that organization, from the get go, from the beginning, thecustomers are brought in. It's an iterator product velopment cycle. The customers arealways in the loop. We continue to tweak the experience of the product andit's a very different way of functioning today. And there's I think were a thousandpeople in that involved in that kind of thinking and it's a cross leadership. It's across countries. So yeah, and I was fortunate to be apart of that because there was a lot of scars, a lot of paininitially when we were starting that, like, what does this even mean for acompany like ours? How do we put that in perspective? How dowe go end to end? What are the different touch points that will kindof agencies do we have to recruite to get a little bit of momentum init? What kind of communication do we need internally within the organization so thatpeople start getting educated on it? It was a huge initiative and I thoughtbeing a part of that early stage really helped not only me learn the craftand do that, but also just how important it is for a company forits market share, you know, cross multiple dimensions. So good. I'mglad to hear that and in reflecting on that, or there may be one, or it could because we're all trying to almost any organization, and certainlypeople that are listening to shows to get exposure to new ideas and these typesof things. Like the type of person that would listen to the show isprobably evolving innovating, you know, generically speaking, and obviously, no matterwhether the transformation is a small behavioral one and a very small team or whetherit's this large organizational like. This is the way we look at, viewand think about and talk about things now. You know, we're all undergoing transformationspretty consistently. At least people that are moving forward are just from apractical standpoint. Or there one or two...

...or three things that you remember fromthat massive transformation that might be useful for someone who's trying to do something perhapsmore moderate in their own organization today. Like we already mentioned kind of theinternal communication piece, but like what are a couple things practically there? Yeah, I'll see three things you think that stood out to me as major learningsfrom that whole effort and I I take that to any job I go to. A number maybe think about a massive transformation. Beat experienced letter otherwise.One is it has to be a multidimensional team. So it cannot be justan engineering team or just a design team or just a research team or justa sales team. There has to be representation from at least in that casehave we had sales, we had marketing at product engineering, we had design. So it has to be a multidimensional team. That's one number, becausethe voices from each of those have to be a part of the discussion atleast early on. Number two is we have to start with a pilot programso when you start thinking about institutionalizing or transforming, it's easier to get caughtin the wave and just go blanket and then, you know, sometimes afailure can be really painful. But if you start with a pilot deam andhow we did it is we had, you know, I think it waslike seven lines of business, and so from each line of business we pickedone specific product line instead of going across a whole gamut and we picked aproduct line. When we picked that specific product we looked at multiple dimensions.One is, is that team ready? Does that have a growth mindset okayfor failure? Where is it in the market maturity State? So there aremultiple dimensions that we looked at, but we picked one from each line ofbusiness rather than going across. Then we test the model across and then oncewe saw and learned from it, then we slowly expanded at across the differentproduct lines. And number three is we have to be okay with failure,and that was just drilled into our heads from the beginning that this it's okayto fail, we fail fast and it's so easy that people use that termand sentences a lot now nowadays, but it was so true and how welived it and we did have failures. There's a lot of scars from thatthat you know, and I look at doing something new in a new company, those learnings just come back to me, you know. So those three things, I believe, really stayed with me as a part of that,at least that initiative that I've taken an applied and started different roles of hadafter that. I can tell by how well structured and concise. Your responsewas that it did stick with you and they expend some time thinking about it, perhaps talking about it and sharing it with other people. I guess lastquestion here, and I didn't intend to even go down this road at allwith you, but I'm glad we're here. In terms of those failures, howwas the split between like they were kind of like mechanical failures or processoversights versus how much of it was kind of the human side of it,either resistance or confusion, misunderstanding, a lack of emotional by cognitive understanding,but lack of emotional by in like, when you think about the failures orlike, where they evenly split? Or were they? How did that go? You know, the Big One, and I touched on this earlier.I think the biggest failure that we learned what as around communication and keeping theteam in the loop as we go through it, because we're talking about amultidimensional team. To start, some of those members didn't even know what we'reafter. This is yeah, this experience led design to be okay, great, sounds great, sounds cool. Apples doing it great, but unless wekeep that team and powered the team and communicate pretty much every detail when everysingle single meeting we have and say what are we learning? Why are wenot learning? It's easy for that team to drift away and that learning andthat was one I would say was consistent across that whenever we saw a communicationfailure or a communication gap of communication internally, starting with internal teams, that pilotprogram would just fall apart. So that's one I then obviously there's more, but I think that's one that I always, always in any of thework I do today. Communication, I just I just it's such a sucha human component to it. Right when people have to feel like they're involvedtheir power, they're where and the communication is a way to do it.Yeah, I I love that you landed it essentially the intersection of the twothings I was trying to peel apart. The like that communication is at theintersection of those two kind of generic categories I drew out. So you're rightat the edge of it. So let's get into it. I have almostno understanding at all of human factors, so I love like a pass onthat because I think people can find it useful. I have gone in.I've done a kind of a medium shallow dive into human centered design, whichI think you would say design thinking in human center design are two phrases forthe same thing. So for people who aren't familiar, because I've applied humancenter designed to communication and in like in a theoretical way, essentially trying tospeak to human centered communication. So I...

...think that the principles are applicable,not just so that people could adapt human center design as they're making decisions anddeveloping things. I think you'd be applied very broadly. And so first,I guess take on human factors. It like just the cursory read when Iwas reading about your background. Is like I need to learn more about humanfactors before I get on this call, and it's super interesting. But thenalso human center design, like just give us an introduction to these things forthe ignorant. Yeah, fair, human factor. So let me let metry to explain, hopefully in simple terms, what that whole field of science isabout. It's really understanding capabilities and limitations of humans ass and when theyinteract with a product, technology or service and then capitalizing on the capabilities circumventingthe limitations so that eventually the overall through put and performance of that man machineinteraction is optimal. So there is a psyche ecology component to it, isunderstanding how humans can thing will kind of attentional resources and working memory capacity andthings like that. Decision making skills under pressure, not you know pressure,the psychology component. Then there is the engineering side that. Once you understandthat, once you understand not only the human psychology of interacting but then alsothe technology that we need to build to help the human and the technology,the engineering side comes in. And it's really that both of them in tandemwhere human factors plays a really crucial role. And you can apply this to anyspace where there's a human component involved. Any space. It could be aMug, it could be an APP, it could be in the airports likescreeny, could be in military operations, it could be anywhere there's a humanand a technology inlaw. So that's human factor. So understanding that sideof it. So there's a psychological and even a physical like a bio mechanicalyeah, okay, for this we call it in psychology, in the humanfactor space, we call it about the shoulder and low shoulder. So aboutthe shoulders, really, the mind and those side, and then obviously achair and you know, you have the Ergonomic side too. So so that'shuman factors it. Hopefully that gives you a little bit of a yeah,fantastic. And then when you come to design thinking, it's you know,it's been around for a while and the more you really start applying principles inthe space of human factors to product and service design or in products and services, is the component or the aspect of design becomes more and more pronounced.And so when you think about use a center design or human center design,it's that that philosophy that you bring to the forefront. And when you thinkabout design thinking, there's different models of explain that. But one that's reallystruck with me, it's a little, I would say a little a fewyears old, but still valid, is there are three pillars. When youthink about design thinking, it is and when you think about a product oror a service, it is a tech feasibility. How feasible is it totechnical layor technology and build it? The business viability. So you think abouta product or service, how much is that going to help the business,the business of viability? And the third component is a user desirability. Sohow much would it resonate with users, your customers, so the more youcan bring those three pillars together, that's the center of it. Is reallyits CD or design thinking. That's what we really and that it's about iteratedproduct development and bringing users in early and continue to iterate with them eventually.That's that. Hopefully that gives you a philosophy of HCD or exigns that like. Yeah, I love the the three pillars of viability, feasibility and desirability. You know, my first pass at it, when I first getting in, I thought there was a bias toward desirability in and to see them balancedout. I think you know, because there's a tendency, like as Iwas thinking about applying human center designed to human centered communication, there's bias towardmaybe altruism or something. I'm going to do a little bit more effort onmy side to meet or exceed their needs and to overcome my own limitations simplyfor their benefit, which you know, in theory, the more we cando for customers these taste, I think, the better they respond. But balancingthe viability in the feasibility is is really, really smart. What youoffered there made me think about the language of customer experience and user experience isuser experience simply the product aspect of a broader customer experience in your view?Yeah, and that's that's kind of why when I when I think about customers, is there every touchpoint? But user experience traditionally has been tied to thisspecific experience related to products. And when people say I'm a UX designer orUX researcher, it's really the product aspect of design, of the product aspectof research, and customer experience traditionally have spanned across. So it could beanywhere from a called center to when you take a Bab world, you takea product to a customer and then you... them set it up and howthe different touchpoints they're evolved, and so it's a whole whole nine there.So it could be seen as a small set of the larger customer experience fieldis Ux has, but to me it's all. It's all the experience.Two more questions in this kind of Zone a little bit. One is whyisn't human centered design the standard? Like when I think about again, viability, feasibility, desirability, like why do I interact with people? And youknow, as as again going down this road of human centered design, humancentered communication as talking to different people about it. A lot of people don'tknow anything about it and it's not like it seems like such a practical framework. So that's one question. Let's just go there. Why do you thinkthis isn't more common or familiar or like? Why isn't this in popular language,at least in a business context? I know that's just I've been amazedby that. I'm in the same same boat as you and I think hasto be. It just has to be. I mean that's just if you lookat the biggest brands and how they operate, it's a part of theirethos and that should tell us not only from a market cap and the profitabilityof companies in general, but that just has to be the kind of productsthey bring it, regardless of the space your in, be to be orbe Toc. The more companies think about human center design and that trickles downto the way they operate, like how they're engineering and product teams and marketingteams, you know, collaborate, to all the way to how the CEOScommunicate out to the street. I mean there's just it sets across. Ithas to be man it's always felt it and I do see that gap.You know. It's one more fascinating thing, if I can share it, sincelease, when you think about some of the be tobe products, Idon't want to say it name, just just taking generally and see some ofthe B Toc products that you and I just you know, interact with daily, and it's top of mine for a lot of people, be scheduling aride, just checking into a hotel or one of those social media APPS.The same people who use the BAC products or the high and APPS when theygo to work in a BB setting, the expectations are so different of howthe experience of the product, of the service could be and when they gohome after work and interact with a technology and experience they are in patient.Things need to work fast and needs to be right there when they need it. So that that distortion, I called the expectation distortion, between be TOBand BBC. It's the same people in different, you know, roles.So there's just so much there to uncover. Is Really what I'm saying and andto your point earlier, that just needs to be front and Center forpeople, for companies, for organization and how you bring human center, design, design thinking into your product and service development process go one more step deeper. They're like at what I my gut would be that that expectation around betob has to be accelerating because of how the be Toc is is now resettingmy expectations one experience at a time. It's like, why am I toleratingthis over here? Because it falls under a different practical category or something like. This is a well, this is be to be software. So myexpectations aren't as high as BETC software. Like. Obviously people don't are certainlyaren't conscious of it, but I maybe we've been trained to have some kindof a bias. Maybe that way. But what do you think about theidea of that gap being forced to close? Yeah, I could buy I orman, I could talk about this for for an hour and I thinkI'll touch on two things here. So there's something when I think when Iwas at fewer, part of it centure. It's a it's a huge design agency. Don't quote me on this, but I think it's a couple ofthe design leaders of fured came up with this concept of what we call fluidexpectations. Fluid expectations really mean people have expectations that are agnostic of the spaceor the product per se. So even if you're interacting with a terminal andan airport or in a control you know a pour plant, your expectation isthat it should work as smoothly as one of the APPS you use to listento music, because the expectations are fluid, it has no boundaries and because ofwhich, to your point, especially in the be tob world, therehas to be an accelerated effort to bring and match experiences that we are seeingin the B Toc World. And the reason that gap exists is, Ithink, multier, multidimensional, mutipfold. One is a lot of times topoint of sale, the person who paints for our product and be to beis not, is not necessarily the same person who used as a product.So that just leads to several you know, it's like who you know, snowballeffector what are we going to call it? But that's one big Iwould say if you do a route cause analysis, that's one part of it. It really is. I got yeah. So, I mean there's more,but I think that's but yes, one hundred percent. The B TobWorld has to catch up. The experience has to be and I think thepotential to bring experiences of forefront is significantly hiring be to be and I thinkwe should, you know, neget that... as as soon as possible.Awesome. Now let's go. Let's go kind of double back a little bitinto what I would regard probably as one of your specialties, is certainly whereyou spend a lot of your career, and it's anchor, it's the foundation, I think, for human center design, which is immersion with the stakeholders inthe design itself, like the people affected by by the process or theproduct or the system or whatever you're designing. And so this intimate familiarity, thistrue understanding, probably alignment with so a maybe speak to the importance ofthat at the beginning of any kind of design process and then maybe give againfor the ignorant. How do you get to be that intimate with those people? And it's not just picking up the phone and talking with six customers inthis particular segment to understand that segment, like how do you collect the user'svoice? How do you organize it, how do you use it? Likehow do you truly immerse yourself at the beginning of a process yeah, andthere's two things there. It's great question and the analysis in there too asa really big question. But yeah, you know, just my goal here, by the way, for you and for people listening, is that maybea leader and a customer success team or someone running a a Dr Team canthink about their own systems and processes, maybe a new thing that they're implementing, and start to think about it this way and think about maybe the resourcesthat might be available to them and, you know, in a simple way, without a team of researchers to go kind of collect and gather and analyzeand theorize and prove out. How do we approach this? How do weapproach this and or how do we collaborate across teams to get to some ofthis intimacy? Yeah, the great question. Great question, an important one,and I'm going to try and be as succinct as possible to hit ofthe main points. Is, again, a sure please manage that career spanacross you know, this month right. Well, that could you boil thatlast eighteen years left words. It's a trend that everything I said in thisin this discussion here than is. It's very multidimensional and let me let mekind of. You know, break that into a couple points. One,when we start off, especially when a company starting to think about how dowe do this right, research is one of those groups, or teams ororganizations, however you want to put it, is not always the first top ofmind thought that comes to an organization to kick off. If they don'thave one already, it could seem as expensive, it could seem as allwere. How are you going to put it? Just depends on the mindset. If you do have a research team, I'll get to that in a bit, things are it means you're a little bit more advanced. So youknow, it's a different way to address a problem. Let's say you don'thave one and you're going to start are how do I bring this customer centricityand humanizing our product to services to the forefront? I think we start withthe people who are building something. have to have access to the people whoare using your system. That's like a principle or a philosophy that you haveto have and you know, in most cases when a company starting that orif an engineer or a product manager who's or, you know, a designer, they have to just go and observe how a user currently uses their system. And the more you're trained in research, like myself, you obviously bring aset of tools to the you know, to the forefront, to kind ofgather probe, elicit, consolidate, does different methodologies. I won't gothere yet, but just generally observing how, let's say, in a process plan, let's because I spend a lot of having my career earlier, howa plan operator actually goes in the clicks on different things and how many clicksdo they have to make before they get to a particular outcome and how manypieces of visualization do they have to look at to make a decision? Alot of times people who build products have no understanding about the level of effort, both cognitive and physical effort, they users have to put in. Sothe more you are in front of them and observing them and shadowing them,not getting into their job, the more empathy you built. The more empathyyou build the next time you go right a line of code or your designa screen or you start bringing talking about a product, you start bringing thatempathy to the forefront. You started thinking about the human the user more.So that's like step one for a company to start getting to that mindset ofGett in front of the users. Now, how do we do that? Isit for people? Is it ten? Is it thousand? Is it?And I worked at companies where our customers span from tens or hundreds tobillions in my career. Like you can you know the brands that I've workedwith. And when you think about research in general, there is several methodologiesand how you would account for the right sample size. How many people,what types of background? That's where a...

...different day. But the idea isyou have to have a pretty good representation from the different parts. It couldbe geographies, it could be different types of users within a company, whateverthat is, but the idea is to start small. You don't have tostart boiling the ocean. Get into that mindset. Get in front of theusers, observe how they work, ask questions without disrupting their work, dosessions after their shift or their particular job, understanding what happened, why it happened, what do you think it is? So that's that's a big part ofit. The other side, which which I think is really important toknow, is, you know, it's important to just not take what theusers saying in face value. So if I say I want that, thatdoesn't mean you just go billed it. That just means that's friend center alot of times, and this is why you need to know psychology. Youknow, there's different types of different ways to look at it. People,people who have procedure life knowledge, which means like if you're driving a car, if you drive stickshift, or for your summer, if I ask youto explain in detail the steps you take to shift a gear from one totwo, to three to four and how much of the clutch and accelerate thegas to go, you can't describe it in words. It's caught. It'sbecause it's procedure lies like how do you swim? When do you take youryou can because it's procedure life. So there's aspects to it, which ismore in the field of research. But don't take everything for face value.You got to look at it from multiple perspectives, go back to the drawingboard, synthesize it and then bring bring that back to the to the design. So what I'm really saying is start with empathy, start with going tothe user, start with observing, start with asking questions and from there thingswe can only progress. In my opinion, really good. I only have onespecific follow up there, although there are many, many interesting things thatyou offered their. So for folks who are listening, there's a sixty twoback button for a reason. That'd be a good time to hit it twice, maybe three times. And what I really loved about the way you introducedempathy in the way that you close there. Is that my understanding? So ifyou spend time on Linkedin, like I do, you see people sayingempathy, you need to be empathy and need to be more empathetic, andit reminds me of something that I've been teaching, which is you know alot of people. You know, whether you're doing video, which is somethingwe support here at bombomb, or trying to become a you know, rightlinkedin posts or give presentations or whatever. People say, you need to findyour voice. Find Your Voice, and I think to say that, whyI was echoing here with me here was this like find empathy, right,but you don't, you develop it. You take actions that develop your voice. Right, like I'm going to get comfortable speaking extemporaneously in a recorded videomessage by recording some video messages and the same thing here is I'm going todevelop empathy by seeing, observing, engaging with understanding. I'm not going to, and I think you know, shallow pass it topics like these two thatI'm trying to make parallel. I don't know if it's working. I feellike it is at the shallow pass as it at. It is, youknow, turn it on, don't leave it turned off, but it's justnot the you have to develop it by doing the work one hundred percent.And that's that's what I said. As some minds and structs with mindset.It starts with wind set and then going in and to my earlier point aboutthe company that we know, we started with a pilot and putting our teamon tidimensional team. We've made it a point that we have to be onthe ground of the users so that actually the salesperson or the marketing person orthe engineering participant, they actually see it and once, once they see it, they realize it. So it's not like, for the flip of aswitch we say it and this is happens. You have to build it. It'sit happens over time. There's going to be scarce, it is goingto be a lot of learning. It's going to be back and forth worthbut it starts with the mindset to put the customer, the user, inthe front and build that empathy over time. The follow up question I have isjust a more of a personal curiosity. I think it is practical for everylistener is you know, as you're organizing, what p different people arelearning. Obviously communication is going to be key, but in particular, whatI'm interested in when the average person looks at what they have available and theystart going down this road and they start doing some observations and conversations and fouledquestions and stuff here, to have this blend, generally speaking, of quantitativeand qualitative feedback. How do we blend these things together? How do wecommunicate, like I did eight interviews and observations and she did for how dowe bring our learnings together and make sense of them so that we can like, start making practical decisions, so we can start acting on what we're learning? Like how do we blend disparate source, seemingly or practically disparate sources of datatogether into something meaningful and useful and a cohesive story or something? Yeah, that's a great question. I think a lot of companies sometimes struggle withthat, which eventually leads to not the right insights. That eventually needs tonot the right products and services, etc. So it's a very fundamental part ofhow you do it, which I think if the more advanced an organizationis on the research side of it or...

...the analytic side of it, differentcompanies are organized differently, the better. It is their experts who do this. So when you think about you know, in my last when as a facebook, because we have very, really mature research organization. And when wethink about research, it's like there's quantitative informations, massive surveys we do,there's actual product usage data, and any company that I worked as this isthis is true. Then there's like conversations and interviews and things we do.How we bring all of that and and really the best insights. That's alldata. This is all data, these different sources of data. Insights arewhen you convert data into information, and when you convert data into information youhave to put the person or the user in context and then you drive insights. And so insights are it's actually a good combination of these different sources ofinformation coming in, which could be surveys. It could be conversations, it couldbe quantitative product usage data, alogics data, whatever that might be.It could be coming in from marketing sale. Anyway, it is important for theseteams to be talking and communicating and exchanging context of these different channels ofit, of data, so that the insights that are generated. There's differentmethodologies for it. I mean there's just that's why people go to school forthis and a lot of instances you are really deriving insights that are more meaningful, more credible, more repeatable. And then you start testing it and thenyou start yeah and make sense. You start putting personas and profiles into thisand that it gains more context. So it's what I really say. Itis a multidimension, afforditional like here. You do three steps in the work. It is a very collaborative process, but important for that collaboration to happenin those different sources of data to come in to convert to insights and informationand, like so many things, I assume that's a balance of art andscience. It is one hundred percent, one hundred percent and you could bewrong. A lot of times. You can be and it obviously statistics isinvolved a lot of these things and this confidence in our reals involved in it, and and there's quality of that. He talked to six people or sevenpeople, so much variants. It cover a lot of different topics. Howdo you like go to the nuggets of the conversation and really drill deep?Validated that with some of the quality to data you're seeing. So there's justa process involved on that and how we really drive the key insights from anexercise like that very close to my heart, as you can imagine, something Ireally enjoy. I haven't done quite a bit, but it is amix of art and science. Super Let's turn this to medicx. So I'vealready hosted on this show Scott mccorkle, founder and CEO, and I reallyappreciate what you all are up to the problem that you're solving. But forfolks who are listening, I typically to this earlier in the conversation, buthere we are. Share whose metics like, what problems are you solving for yourcustomers and who are those customers? So I'm sure Scott touched on this, to Scot's amazing I'll give you my perspective, which Scott and I arelined on Meta sex is really a platform where you can think of a buyerand a supplier and suppliers or vendors or customers are you going to call it? You have a buyer and supplier in the Bab world coming onto a platformlike medic x where they share and collaborate and come up with the success planthat works for both of them. That's why we call it both. Whenright, you win it when together. So buyers have certain needs find buyinga product. I have certain needs. The vendor of the supplier has certaincapabilities that eventually matches with the needs of the buyer has a lot of timesthat's in powerpoint slides or excel sheets or conversations or texts. MEDICEX makes ita platform where buyers and suppliers, both parties, can come in and createa shared success plan. We call it a shared success plan, and thosecould be defined around specific outcomes that are going to come out of that relationshipand that agreement. And then how do you drive the value and how doyou really monitor how those outcomes are being met through life performance, that datathat we can plug into our platform that over time, both parties are drivingvalue, not only internally to their organizations, but also to the larger ecosystem.So that's what really met Cx does is bring a buyer and supplier ontothe platform, create a shared success plan, bringing life performance data, and thenboth parties win together. I appreciate the transparency that that brings to therelationship. You know this. You know that it's a little Shay or orgeneralized, but you know so often you say what needs to be said,you you do what needs to be done in order to get the deal closedand then you know, nine months later, you start begging for the renewal.And this just like like I assume that that that your customers are bringingbringing their their potential customers in or the buyers as early as possible. That'srights environment and into this conversation and into...

...this type of engagement. That's right. And I'll give you a very specific example that we really as a researchand experience and design later the past. We've seen, you know, Iused to. I used to manage a lot of vendors, my organization,my team's. We have research design tools that they you know, that wehire, we use for our methodologies. A lot of times we don't reallyhave an understanding of the value that we're getting from them. We signed adeal and then goes off for a year and we do something, you know. And so how do we bring that into a platform where both parties cansee it and the value that we creating, not only as a design or researchorganization within a company, but then also how that's aligned with our coreobjectives, how to sup high is aligned. Would like, for example, diversityand you know. So some of those core objectives. MEDICEX is providesa platform to make that transparent and we're seeing some amazing traction in the industryfor that. And it's just sounds very simple, but it is one ofthose things which is sounds very simple but it just adds so much valuable internallyand also externals and organization. Cool. One observation, one question. First, I know that you all are going to be successful a because you've attracteda whole bunch of like to really sharp people into the organization and then bethis is we're not. People are the most important, but anyway the be, it's the it's like this, this Duh thing, like this didn't exist, like this seems like it should definitely exist. And this definitely seems likea better way to do all of this stuff that we're doing, those ofus that sell in a be to be environment. So I think that combinationof things, it's absolutely going to be something successful and I'm certain you'll haveto the degree that you may or may not have competition now, like wehave a lot. We have at bomb on that a lot more competition nowthan we did seven or eight years ago, which is at some level is likeoh my gosh competition. At the other level it's like, Oh,this completely validates that this is a thing that should be happening. So Iknow you're going to be successful. Last question here on on Medicx really isI think this is your first go as a chief product officer. Couple takethis, however, anywhere you want, but you know, some of myinterest here is how do you function within the organization, like what is yourrelationship perhaps with other kind of functional or department leaders? And then to likewhat is maybe different about this role then perhaps you expected based on your previousexperience, like what's unique about this role for you personally in the experience thatyou bring to it, because it's a it's a role you've not played directlybefore. Yeah, it's very interesting question anything and something that I probed andreflective at a bid as I was thinking about career moods. Want to answerto two questions right and the first part. One of the things that I'm reallyat meticx we do really well is orchestrating and court across apartments because that, as I said, it's we're small. I mean we're not, you know, a hundred thousand people. We're small, but I think it startswhen we're small. That culture has to build that there's a really good orchestrationhappening across sales. Any of our GTM team's customer success, proct engineering andI run product engineering. So that's one. We're just so much coherence and understandingand transparence across very important part of our culture. So that's one.Number two, from a chief product offer roll, what is it different?How is it different? is a different? Here's why I think Scott I havea lot of respect for him and I think that's which is why he'sso successful, is has been a BUBB for him thirty years, several yearsnow. One of the things he's he's starting to hopefully started to see,which I resonated with is people don't pay for products, they pay for theexperience. And when you bring that experience led thinking and a person who's doneexperience led design, experience of innovation, experienced a product development to and eththose of a company on how products are being built and make experience of forefront, then it's just a matter of a title change or role change. Butwhat I did throughout my career in mostly the BDC space, with somebody tobe is what we're doing in Messx. We're putting experience in the forefront ofour product. How it looks, how it works, how it interacts,how would change his transitions penetrates across different touchpoints, for in a Bob Space. And so if you ask me, am I doing something really different?Probably not. In fact, I think Scott has been really he's probably goingto revolutionize how products are being thought about here in the space. Were bringingexperience to the forefront of how we think at it, you know, ato z period, and so it's been a really cool what I've been herenow seven months, eight months now. It's been really, really exciting andto work with somebody like Scott and the team that we're building. It's justand the space that we're after to eventually build a business value network where biasand suppliers a collaborating on the medic x platform and we have all that informationthat we could use to provide value back to the network and coming round anetwork company. And I think putting all those things in perspective and really usingthat to drive medici x, it's just an amazing right for me, awesome. I'm excited for you, I'm excited for the team, I'm excited foryour customers and, above all, I'm...

...excited for the potential cultural shift thatthis will I mean this goes back to where we were a while ago andI by the way, I had so many questions we'd even get to butI feel like like we need to call it soon. This idea of likeexpectation management. I think once once your customers, customers, have this experience, they're going to want it for themselves in their own customers and they're goingto want it from their other fenders. It's like there. I'm really excitedabout that, the cultural shift that your philosophy could could guide, and soif I can be of help in any way, let me know. Butfor folks who are listening. We mentioned Scott and on and mentioned Scott specifically. That's Scott mccorkle, founder and CEO at metic X. I hosted himhere on this podcast on episode one hundred and twenty three. We called thatone transforming customer relationships with transparency and collaboration, and certainly the way we talked aboutthe work that you're doing, I think transparency and collaboration fit. Willcall this one something different, but that was episode one hundred and twenty three. You was Scott mccorkle. Another one you might enjoy, if you enjoyedthis conversation, is episode ninety seven with Bob Barry. He's the principle UX researcher at answer lab and he's the founder of the Human Computer Mastermind Academy. We called that one, and I used his language on it, howU X drive CX in parentheses in the entire world economy. He made abasic argument that the logic pretty well help for me that U X drive CX and in fact drives the kind of s. That was episode ninety sevenwith Bob Barry. Before I let you go on, and can you giveme two pieces of information and any context you want to add around them.The first is thinking or mentioning someone who's had a positive impact on your lifeor your career, and the second is a company, your brand, thatyou appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Sothis is goes back to the thread that I've, I guess, said throughoutthis discussion. Anything is I don't think there's one. If I could justsay two or three for each of those questions and I'll say why. It'sjust the way I've I've got engineering, you know, psychology and business,just the way I've built my career. So product, I think there areaspects of Apple, I love the brand, just again, a CD and howthey put design and forefront. There's aspects of a product like lift,where the APP is extremely, in my opinion, very extremely easy to use, visual keeps a user in the loop. A product like turb attacks, whichmakes extremely complex tax laws, gives a confidence to user in a simple, systematic way to fill out your tax forms. So there's aspects of thosethree that have all these excited means. Some we were form and so Iwould say those three in a way that that that have resonated quite while acrossbecause of different reasons, and with people who've or a person who's had animpact. I mean, this is so difficult for me to say. I'llsay again three people. One my pag adviser, who's had an instrumental impacton me on on work ethics and commitment to it, to making things rightand being okay to feel, my dad, who've had a lot of. PersonI've had a lot of has had a lot of personal impact on meacross several dimensions. And the third person from a leadership I'd say, iswill CAATH Gart, who I've worked at facebook. I started as a partof his leadership team. Now he runs all the WHATSAPP. Will would beembarrassed I'm even saying this, but he is. His approach to leadership,especially charismatic leadership, is something that has stayed with me. How do youpeep put you a people in front as a leader and let them drive anew early channelizing and how do you approach things with empathy in mind? Sowill my Ph advisor, pad Delucia, who's a professor at Rice University.Now in my dad, who passed away in December. Those three people,I think, are people who've had impact on me and for a different reasons. Awesome, well done. Thank you for sharing that. And if folkshave enjoyed this conversation, which I don't think you'd be listening at this pointif you didn't, how can someone learn more about you or medic x oreven human factors or human center design? If we want to send people onan exploratory journey, we are some places you'd send people who enjoyed this conversation. Oh Man, there's a lot of resource. Obviously you can connect withme on Linkedin. I'm very I really act on Linkedin. Medicexcom reach outto us. If you have any questions, happy to chat. We have awonderful team that will reach out to your needs. And then with respectto human factors, I think there's so many resource. You could do Googlesearch you get a lot, but I think it'shfs Dot Org. HFEES DOTORG is the society that is kind of the body for human factors in youreconomics that has academics, practitioners, students. It's really a good place to startwhen you think about human factors in general. I'd say it's probably areally credible or authoritative source to start. Super I will round those up forfolks who are listening. I put up blog posts with the help of Vivianon our team and some other folks. We put up blog post bombbcom slashpodcast. We drop in a handful of video clips with kind of key momentsin these conversations. I'll round up all of the links that on and mentionedand in some other stuff too, so... can always visit bombombcom slash podcastif you're on the move and you didn't write any of the stuff down andit got by you. No problem, we've got it all linked up androunded up and we've got some videos too. So thank you for listening and thankyou so much for your time and insights on and I really enjoyed itand again, probably could have done this one is a two hour episode.Thank you for thank you for Hammy. I really enjoyed it. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits ofadding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do withjust a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in ordertoday at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to thecustomer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today isto create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visitBombombcom podcast.

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