The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 5 months ago

173. Delivering Connected CX By Improving Go-To-Market Strategy w/ Sangram Vajre


Everyone wants to know how to operate their business effectively. But depending on which of the three growth stages your company is in, the answer will be different.

In this episode, I interview Sangram Vajre, Co-Founder and Chief Evangelist at Terminus and author of MOVE: The 4-Question Go-to-Market Framework, about GTM as a process, the 3 stages of business, and his CX takeaways from his book research.

Sangram and I talked about:

  • Why the connected experience is essential for frictionless CX
  • How GTM is a transformational process for acceleration
  • What it means to be a problem company, a product company, or a platform company
  • What 3 things the CEO should own
  • How the MOVE framework applies to scaling      

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That's what the or B TOB is. Nobody's going to ever say your marketing sucks, are your customer success sucks or your broaduct sucks. They're going to say your company sucks, which is why the connected experience is about creating more frictionless experience. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. About a month back we set a new first here on the customer experience podcast, three guests on the same episode the CO authors of the Book Cmo to Crow, the revenue takeover by the next generation executive. Today we've got another first, our first three time guest, and he's probably got something to say about a CMO to cro shift, because he sees the CMO as the likeliest potential change agent to improve go to market strategy. Our guests help build the peak community, a community of emerging and leading CMOS. He's Co founder and chief evangelistic. Terminus, the leading account based marketing platform. He's the author of three books, including the Wall Street Journal in USA Today Best Seller move, the for question go to market framework, which will be talking about today, and he's an all around great person, always so thoughtful and generous. Sang Grumbager, a welcome back again to the customer experience podcast. Very exciting to be with you. Yeah, really looking forward to it. And where we normally start? Here, Sanger, we may remember from your first two visits and again, welcome back again. I've had a couple two time guests and it's welcome back. I didn't know what to do this time. So you might remember from your first two visits that we typically start with like, you know, define customer experience or what thoughts come to mind. But instead of what I'm going to do is read a passage from move and then we're going to break it down in reverse order, starting with customer experience. So I've spoiled the end here for listeners. This is a line from move, GTM, or go to market or go to market strategy. GTM is a transformational process for accelerating your path to market with high performing revenue teams. Delivering a connected customer experience. And so that's all one statement, by the way, beautifully illustrated in the book. The book is really fun to flip through because of the way different things are broken out. But I want to break this down here in this conversation, Sangram, and start with customer experience. Talk about customer experience and specifically talk about that modifier connected. Yeah, and I think I posted this maybe a day or two ago even, where I was at a grocery store asking for some Salza, and not to dance with me, but like really like give me pineapple salsa or something like that, and the salside my wife said he need to get this specific brand, the specific things. I was really on it and I asked this person who was just walking by, and then you, who will clearly works at the store, and the person said, I don't work in this department and I was like, okay, then it. That's a that you know that does. Wasn't a great response. And then, as another person who had a similar response in that in that store, and even the first thing came to my mind, I don't know about you, but was this store sucks like not that this person is not good? Or is that that? Gosh, maybe this part of the department needs help. No, I didn't think about anything. I just said this store sucks and I'm going to try everything to never come back here again. So they just lost me there for, we know, for not giving me a four dollar sal saw, like you know, literally that was a cost that they you know, for which I don't. I felt like, you know what, I'm not going to go here again, and I think that's really where BDB is. Nobody's going to ever say your marketing sucks or your customer success sucks or your product sucks. They're going to say your company sucks, which is why the connected experience is about creating more frictionless experience. In my view, absolutely it... It reminds me of why. Going to be curious your take on this and then we'll get on to revenue teams and high performing revenue teams. You know, I've sent a ton of emails from my email address Ethan at Bombbcom over the years. I just hit ten years of Bombom full time, which is insane. So I said a ton of emails. So a lot of people have my email address and I will get questions like where's the pineapple salt? So I here's the exact brand I'm looking for. Can you tell me where to find it? And No joke, like seven times out of ten I will personally respond back, you know, with with my own take, maybe an additional tip, maybe a link to a support article, and I'll do that personally, because they obviously don't know who to go to. They don't know that support at Bombombcom is an email address. They could have emailed instead, and so if I can easily do it, I will every time. And I always get these super nice replies like, Oh my Gosh, thank you for taking the time to do that, and the ones that all asterisk on and like send forward to support, you know, a if I'm like super buried and I don't have time to do that or be if it's going to be this, I can already tell it. It's going to be this complicated thing, I'll still reply and let them know here are a couple thoughts and I forwarded your email. They'll be reaching out to you have any questions. In the meantime, you can do that proactively, but I you just validated my instinct that you know as pattern behavior, this ability to make people feel seen and heard, especially in the earliest days of the company like that is the reputation that we all want. Why do you think so many people fall down unconnected? Well, it's hard and it doesn't cost money, right. That's the that's the kicker. If it cost money, I think people would have figured this thing out. Anything like. I really think if it costs money, people know how to put an Arrow. I do it. But this doesn't cost money. This takes thoughtfulness, this takes authenticity of a different level. A lot of people just like what you're saying. Would add, I mean for you and me. You know, we're in positions where we're doing these things that we don't have to. I think it's a very important part and you didn't have to do what you just said to so many. You could just literally forward that email to somebody and said hey, take care of it and if any if you didn't, you will still be okay doing your job. But the reason you do that is because you recognize that that is a human centered value in doing that and I'm it just makes you good store for your own business as doing it. But it doesn't cost money. Now you, I bet you're going in every other meeting that you go in your organization that is all around money and whenever there is a money conversation everybody's interested in it. It's not a money conversation and I think we I think that is one of the unfortunate things. Great things in life don't cost money. Yeah, it's so good because it's about how we make people feel and it is interesting this challenge of what's measurable and what's immeasurable, and it how we make people feel as immeasurable. ME. Sure you can do things like NPS and some of these other like self report quasye treatments of how we make people feel, but the reason people say yes and take the meeting or say yes and make the referral, or yes and fill out the survey is that they feel good about us. Be can't measure that, and so a lot of people take it for granted. Okay, revenue team. So again, GTM is a transformational process for accelerating your path to market with highper forming revenue teams delivering a connected customer experience defined for folks a revenue team and specifically that modifier, high performing. Now, man, it is one of those areas where we learned so much as part of the research. Even if anything, you've seen my other two books, and hopefully you would attest to this, that this took it had a lot more research and a lot more depth than my previous two books and, regardless of anything comes out, I'm just proud of the research that went into it and as an author I think you could relate to that part of it. It is not saying Hey, my book is awesome, I like that, just as it's like I'm so, so, so proud of the research that went into it. And one of the conversations that I had was with the Jeffrey Moore, who wrote crossing the chasm. And again I'm taking liberty over here and saying that if... have only ten bucks in your pocket today, don't buy Ethan's book or my book, going by Jeffrey Moore's book on crossing the Chasm, because it is the hallmark classic of all books. And Jeffrey give an odd and he said Hey, this is the next crossing the chasm for the next stage. So I feel incredibly humble by that. But he was literally from back from a trip but Mark Bennia for five days when I was having Monday morning my name call with him and he's like he looked at everything I showed him about the threeps, the problem product platform, think in the book and the move framework, and he said saying regard this wrong, and I'm like, it's about the head, like in a month like this is not what I expected to hear. I just wanted you to say awesome and give me a review and just go on your way and let me go on my way. But none of the he said, you got this wrong. I'm like, Jeffrey, what did I get wrong? He said, Oh, your order is wrong. You said in here you talk about the fact that marketing and sales and customer success knee is part of your go to market revenue team. That's the core definition of it. And he said your order is so wrong. If you actually ever want to become a platform company, which might I said, too many people label themselves too early, but if you ever want to become a true platform company, and we can get into it in a minute, that you need customer success ahead of sales and marketing. He literally changed the order of it. So even I know you've read the book, you probably may have seen why is these sales and then sales post marketing, and then it literally says Customer Success Plus Sales Post Marketing in the chart and in the book. That will because Jeffrey Moore just came back and said that's so important. Your customer success is going to be the reason you become a platform company. Love it. So revenue team is at the heart of this podcast. It's obviously supported by vops revenue operations, which is also gets a lot of appropriate attention and insights in the book. Move and this idea of starting with customer success, I think we learned it at bombomb and Steve and I wrote about it in Chapter Three of Human Center Communication, based on the teaching of Jacko Vander Koy at winning by design and the way he positions it as the growth loop on the right side of a bowtie funnel that start with sales and marketing, moves to the point of commitment in the middle and then transforms into on boarding impact growth in this positive growth loop. And so when we start with that end in mind, how do I get my fourth year renewal for fifth year renewal or third year in a row of expansion or whatever we're trying to do in our business with and for and through our customers. A It's all based on customer impact. And then be the revenue is a consequence of the customer impact. Yestad, we put the revenue number up on the board and go chase the revenue number. If, instead we put the customer impact, where the customer successor be customer outcome, up on the board in some way, and I'm not saying we're all doing it wrong. It's really a balance of both. But if we gave more priority to customer impact and customer success and customer oute comes, the revenue at some level would take care of itself, although somehow that feels like an act of faith. Yeah, I know you know who. It's interesting. Like Ethan, I was recently in a conversations with companies, CEO CEOS and founders and investors, and one of the one of the companies, was about and I'm and did a pull on this one. So it was really interesting how people reacted to this. But I had this this this company who was fifty million revenue with a seventy five percent nurr net retension rate and their valuation was right about half a billion, while at the same time one of their competitors was thirty million in revenue and their Nurr was one hundred and twenty percent. Now I'm making out on these numbers because I did not care about the numbers like as a person who started the founding a company and stuff like this was not my vernacular vocabulary. Had to go research this. If you are in that process, that's okay. You go research because it is important for you to know what I'm about to say. The company with fifty million revenue, immediate peoples thought is that, oh, they must have a higher valuation. Guess what. The fifty...

...million dollar company, with seventy five percent and are are, had a half a billion valuation. The company with thirty million revenue, with a hundred and twenty percent, had over one point two million invaluation. Now guess what. The CEO of the Fifty Minute Dollar Company is racking his brain and he's like, why is the world would you not give me a valuation bigger than half a billion? Doesn't even make sense. I have twenty more million and me and no, they're sitting in the room saying that's exactly the reason you're not getting it. You have twenty more million worth of customers that you don't want. You don't need their sagging your entire bottom line down. Your customer success is over inflated because you're supporting use cases that don't make sense. There you can't expand anymore on it. Some of them are one off, like completely taking five engineers to build integration. That you shouldn't be doing at all. So we're going through all this stuff that this person obviously knows, but the twenty. But he can get rid of that twenty million like tomorrow. And and because it's hard once you have those customers. He's struggling with that and you're like, look, your valuation is about seven hundred fifty million low, but we all thing that more revenue equals more valuation. Therefore focus on getting new customers, whereas the reality couldn't be for the from the truth. And I've seen it of our own at a our own company, super powerful. For folks are listening, I will walk it back just Aron Nurr. Net recurring revenue. Essentially the fifty million dollar company is selling out of a twenty five percent a hole every years. They're not retaining all that revenue. They're only retaining seventy five percent of it. Net. So they're selling out of a hole. So if they want to get to sixty million, they got to sell ten million new plus the twenty five percent that goes missing, whereas the thirty million dollar business is so focused on delivering customer impact that not only are they probably retaining close to a hundred percent, the accounts that stay are growing by twenty more points. or You could say like let's say they're losing five, but they're you know, they're adding twenty five percent to the other ninety five percent for a net retention rate of a hundred and twenty percent. And you can see which company is a more focused be delivering more customer impact and then see which one is going to grow fastest over the next three to five years. So you know, you take a snapshot in time, it looks like fifty millions pretty good and that's nothing to scoff at. You know you've done a lot of things right to get to fifty million. But who's going to be ahead three years, five years from now? You know it's tortoise and hair on Nurr, and of course the thirty million dollar company is going to sprint ahead. Okay, two more here. It's good we could actually spend the whole conversation breaking this one lined out. Yeah, this could be a four part like complete series for people, because there is story after story for each one of them. And again, the research has been so much fun to do. Yeah, so this one is accelerating your path to market. So again, go to market is a transformational process for accelerating your path to market with high performing revenue teams delivering a connected customer experience. So talk about path to market. How should people be thinking about it? What a people get confused, it seems like. Well, yeah, we put up the website, we got some some means of, you know, taking some credit cards or issuing contracts, like we're in the market. Like yeah, what are people missing in general with path to market? And then also talk about that modifier of acceleration or accelerating that path. Oh Man, this is this is so we we had we wrote eighty percent of the book a then without the threep framework, them about to share their will. That will further further get into it. So the move framework stands for itself. Market operations, velocity expansion. Will get into that in the last part. But this is where the pop too market is people don't know what stage of the business they are in. That was are a great one of the greatest finding from the book research was people didn't know if they are in a problem market state or a product market stage or a platform market stage. Even, as a matter of fact, if you could take one action atom from this conversation so far, just go back to your office and have this conversation with their...

...executive team and just ask and are we in a problem market state, which mean we don't have a repeatable process of everything yet, but we kind of know that there's a market there and we're trying to see if they pay for it. And guess what? You could be at twenty million dollar Revenue Company and still be in problem market fed, which was again a big revelation for us as part of the research. Or you might be in a product market fit, which means that you have a repeatable, scalable Moll model, but you have one product. You one product that you're scaling. And guess what happens after certain point, about a year, you're going to have more competitors. Your existing customers are going to have you do more stuff like hey, what else is happening over here? So you're going to automatically be pushed to have more than one product services to create that nrr effect or to just stay aflow with the market changes that are happening around you. So that pushes you into platform markets, in which we just talked about, where customer success becomes a key part of your driving business force. So in all of these things, the challenge that we found out in a research was companies didn't know what stage of the business they really are in and they would fail. And this is the value of death. This is another research people could do. There is an whole set of articles that we discovered called the value of debt. People can literally search for SASS value of debt, and the SAS value of debt shows that after about ten million, companies die at a much faster rate than before, since literally point four percent of the companies go from ten million to fifty million. So literally you get to ten million, you're excited, you think you got it and now you go there to die like so. So it's literally the reason companies do not excelerate the market, the pack to market part is because they don't know how to navigate the value of debt. And that's really where knowing what stage of the business you're in and how do you apply this move. Framework becomes a big part of how you can you can go from point a to point be really good. I mean this, this three piece. Again, I think a lot of people are familiar with the term product market fit, but they overlook problem market fit and they don't necessarily see the potential of platform market fit. So I really like what you did with the three piece framework and, honestly, in this framework I spent a lot of time thinking about bombomb and I spent a lot of time thinking about you and Brian and what the team has done at terminus with some of your acquisitions. And, like you know, how did this framework emerge for you all, like when, like, did you break it down through some of your own reflection and then validate it with some of the interviews? was there like a breakthrough moment, like how to eat? Like I just thought so much. The three piece are fantastic. I could see us in it and where we are. I could see terminus and imagine a little bit talk about the process of like how did you peel those three apart? Because, again, everyone knows product market fit is a term. Doesn't mean the understand it or know what to do with it, but just get it deeper on that. Yeah, I think you and I both have always been problem market fit for people. Right. We have all this focus of the problem or product. We neither of US talk about our product as much as as which as we talked about the problem that needs to be addressed. So I think we interially Understan stand that part. But as our company have now got to fifty million revenue and I've grown and we have five different acquisitions in the last seven years. It has been a constant understanding for me is like, what are we really trying to achieve over here? Why are we acquiring companies? Why are we doing this stuff? And and there was this phrase, wasn't there? In the mind, is like what we really trying to go is get to this part where we no longer have to worry about survival in the business, because it's not about one stage company. It was about creating a healthy business. That's really what it would wasn't about just trying to take over the world, it was trying to create a healthy business. And so when you think about we have customers that have been over with us for over five years now, we have over a thousand customers and they are looking for us to be the innovator out there. And then you start thinking about like are be innovating fast enough? But guess what, the bigger the company, the less innovation happens. Is just weird. So what you do is you go and acquire companies that are early innovative at the time where you can get them...

...early enough so that they can become a big, big part of your growth engine. So we are literally, even though we have five different acquisitions ethen, I would say we're squarely in the middle of product market fit and platform market fit because we are so well known for the one thing we do well and we are helping educate the market, as well as our existing customer base, that Hey, we have all these other things, like we're constantly educating them and they're like yeah, but we love you for this, and like great, but we also have this and that's going to help our NRRE, that's going to help us all the we can get into different business units within that company so that we can actually have been a bigger volume chair. All these things are so important, but if we it's a struggle. So we are constantly going through this therapy session of ourselves. Like, guess what, guys, you could be in a decade in a stage of the business. So it's not a race and then it's a marathon. You could be a decade in a problem market fit. It could be a decade in each one of these stages and that's okay. Case in point, sales force did not go into marketing cloud for about fifteen years of their existence. Fifteen years they were they wanted to dominate the entire sales cloud ecosystem, build everything around it and they wanted to get into marketing by acquiring marketing cloud, which was exact target. That's how they got into the whole marketing cloud and now they have a cloud for everything. So every single company have gone through these stages and they have stayed there for decades. So it's hopefully it's a therapy for a lot of people listening to it. It's not like oh you can, you can't leap frock from one to another. So it's been really research and therapy for us to recognize it's a long way to go and it takes time. I love that. That response reminded eve another company I was thinking about throughout, which is hub spot, you know, and just kind of like they're their evolution over the past what, fifteen years or so? And Yeah, so good question. This is like a still a follow up and then we'll get on to GTIM as a process which is never complete, which you've already kind of forecasted, like I think everyone should have heard that pretty clear but, like, this isn't something you write, you brainstorm right down on a piece of paper and then, you know, just operate the business. It's an iterative, ongoing process. will discuss that in a minute. But, you know, another concept related to stages of growth. That's typically I hear it in a revenue context. But what did you hear or what have you observed in your career? What did you learn in the research you did for the book about, you know, the team, like the leadership team at different stages of growth? You hear like, Oh, that's the you know, that's the twenty five to fifty million dollar Gal. You like, if you want to take your sales team from this stage to the like this revenue point, to this revenue point, like did you hear anything about kind of leadership or have you met specialists in particular phases of these of growth or these different stages, like talk about in terms of leadership, personnel structure or you know or you're observing that the team grows with as the as the company evolves. Like talk about that personnel dynamic a little bit. Oh sure thing. And in the book we have laid out what are the role of the V see, what is the role of the CML, what is the role of the crow? And the one that I want to talk about is the role of the CEO in this, because that's really at the crux of it. So they just big up spotted an example. Ran Hallighan, who is the see of up spot now the executive chairman. We interviewed him on this and he gave a quote which led to that go to market as a process. So talk more about that piece in a bid. But he really talked about this idea that they're only three things. A clowns, the clowns the vision for the company. They have to constantly tell that to their employees, to their customers, to the teams, to the we see's, to the market, all of that right. They have to be the the person they that that are evangelizing the vision every day. They can never say the vision the more than they have to. They always have to continue that. The second part is that culture. They if they cannot hire great team, then it's doomed. Though. Doesn't matter w how great of a product you build or how great the vision is, it's going to go. But the third thing...

Brian said that you didn't think about and nobody talks about this. It's the unsexy part of the business is go to market. Like he's like, who else is in the company right now thinking about should we hire sales like or in age in the case of LB spot? Now we should go through an agency business model as opposed to go to direct to consumer business model, or saying that we need to open an office in Europe versus we need to focus on in North America. Who is making all these decisions? He's like I the CEO. So CEO owns go to market. And Ethan, I have a shock because then when I then we and when with then when we interviewed Nick Meta, a hundred million dollar company, see of gains that, he said without blinking, I own go to market. Then I interviewed manny CEF outreaching in another hundred mind like yeah, he oh, like so every likes. And then when we talk to the CMOS, like Megan Eisenberg now, to see im after a paction or Sydney Sloan, see him a sum up, still slot, she's like yeah, the CEELS it, and I'm like, wait a minute, the CEO owns it and and I thought the crow baby. So I came in at this book and I learned so much about it that Oh no, the CEO truly owns it, because these are not decisions off. What is the COMP plan or with? None of these are decisions that we're going to define the business outcome. So it was very, very much of like the ownership question is very important. Now, of course everybody else can support tactically, but CEO owns it in your organization. That's not clear. You need to make that clear and you need to help the CEO educate about that. Really good. Now to the top of that statement and I read it once more so that people can start committing it to memory. And actually, actually I'm just trying to do that myself. GTM is a transformational process for accelerating your path to market with high performing revenue teams delivering a connected customer experience. So transformational process what is being transformed and I guess double down, triple down, quadruple down on the idea that this is never done and that it is in fact a process. Yeah, it is. This this quote directly came from Brian. How I get the the sea of hub spot and it's on the back of the book, like number one thing that came in there and I thought that was the most succent. Like, people may not remember the full definition that you and I was speaking over here, but if they can take away with this one thing saying that, oh, it is a process, it's not a project, it's not a just a strategy session. It's not that you go on an offside your executive team and chalk it up. Now, that's vision casting, that is goal setting. You got to do that. But this is an iterative process. Would goes back to like the like bronze and his own words. He's like I'm thinking about go to market as a weekly process. I'm constantly thinking about what do I need to change the business that is going to help our business be held and grow faster. So it's not something that I can chalk it up on a quarterly plan or a yearly think it's like it's too late for that. After it. Rate on it tomorrow, if the acquisition offer comes in for another company to Quirre, I have to make that that support of a go to marketing decision. So I hope people take it take a breathe on this. Is that this is not something that you have to come up with and know for a fact and put it on a wall. Then this is something you just get everybody focused on that. This is something we have to define, change it, rate on it constantly, and that's a good thing. Yeah, one more go to market quote. Your GTM process connects your company strategy with your customer outcomes. I feel like you already touched on this when you shared Brian's three main points of interest at hub spot, because it did include this GTM or company strategy, and it with the vision and the like. He blended company strategy and customer out comes there. But speak to that yourself, like yeah, hum, what have maybe historically, because you know, you spend a lot of time and a lot of conversations with a lot of different people casually for projects like this, etc. What do you think it's confused about company strategy and Customer Outcomes? Like why is it necessary to like, I agree that's necessary to state at this distinctly. But why is that necessary? Like, what goes wrong? What do we get wrong?...

Yeah, I mean it is. It is one again, if one of those things even that I think you and I and most people know instinctively that, oh, we have to think about customer outcomes. But that is not how most things operate. So if you think about a sales process, let's as somebody right now listening to this is part of a sales roll or sales process. They are looking at the sales process as I need to get a deal in, I need to close the deal out. They're not thinking about customer outcomes as much. They may ask a few questions around that, but they're not thinking about that. Now you look at a market or market the thing I need to get more people in it so we can convert more great more pipeline. Still not enough about customer outcomes. The closest to all of this is the customer success team, because they're talking to the customers and saying, what is it that you hope to get out of this product or the service that I can deliver on you? It's so we can renew and we know that that's delivering in the in the promise that we thought. That's where you get the real stuff and that's where they get into the real product. And so was that they're like, Oh my God, this is not going to work out, or they have in the full thirty days. They have this feeling of like okay, this is going to be good or this is gonna be bad. Like we're like less than thirty days. So we like, for example at terminus, what is really interesting for me was we started to create this plants around that. Within thirty months, thirty days off having a new business start, we should have a clear idea of not only in a standing their customer outcomes, but also will they didn't new or not? Start documenting that right because if they, if you feel like everybody's Oh yeah, of course they're going to be fine, learn no, will the renew or not? Now you're adding some Greece to it, right, like now you're actually having some valuable conversation. So you're already getting the CSMS to think about it and they can openly talk now. I don't think they're looking for something else we don't even have in the product. I don't know what we sold in the sales side. So you will learn about all of these things and the more that gap shrinks the better it is for you. So the customer outcomes is very, very important part of the process. Really good. So you mentioned a couple different people and a couple different seats in the house. Where I'm getting at it's like your personal goal or purpose for the book. It obviously has insane amount of value for a CEO or a founder, you know, these early leaders. You've already said a couple of times in a couple different ways how important it is for CEO to take real ownership over go to market. But you know, now that it's out in the world, now that you're having these conversations, now that you're getting feedback and you've got a ton of reviews on the book in your processing some of the feedback you're getting, I'm assume you agree, like I agree, like this would be useful for anyone operating, especially in a software business or recurring revenue model. I feel like it's really useful for people in multiple seats in the house, because you might not be able to understand all of it from you know, I'm thinking of like an awesome go getter on our bed our team. This is his second professional job, his first running a software company. He's not going to like get it. Get it the same as, you know, Steve, my coauthor on a couple books in our cmoh, who's been you know, he's sold software for a dozen years or more before joining us and it's been leading our growth for the past seven years. They'll get it differently, but there's still value for, I think, everybody in the organization to start understanding who are we all together? How do these ideas work together? How do these teams work together? I'm a part of a revenue team, whereas before I thought I was a BEDR and service of an account executive or two. You know, like talk about your your initial goal or hope relative to what you're experiencing now with regard to WHO's getting valued from the book and how totally so our goals we have stated in the book and and also something that we are trying to put out there is like, in the next five years, you want to see a thousand company transform their business that we want to help come but it's figured out their next move. Like that's how we're putting it out there and again it's it doesn't happen overnight, it takes time. So for somebody who's in a C level thing, we're like..., let's have that conversation, because this is a transformation book, this is a change book. This is not an inspiration book at all. So if you're looking for, if your inspiration, let go go. You look at like Brinnie Brown's book or something like that. This is not that. This is like blueprint, framework, score cards, templates, that kind of stuff. So then you can actually do something about it and you can transform the business. Nobody reading this book can go back and say I don't need to change something in my business. That that will be an utter failure for for us as authors. And the second part, if you're not at the C level today, who is not able to change the organization or make those change transformation decisions to your point eight, and it's valuable for them for two really big reasons. Number One, they will learn about the business as a whole. Like one are the other things and the ownerships and things. Please, you just have a bigger value. Like, as you so well put you're not an SDR in a SDR roll. You're in a revenue team front to build your business forward. That's what you see is thinking about it gets you closer to to that that person that you're working with. But, more importantly, if you want to ever get promoted in your organization, this is a fantastic conversation starter. Writing. We literally in the book for Eat. Once you figure out what stage of the business you can literally ask this question, Hey, what state of the business are we in? And based on that we have identified nine questions for that stage and then nine separate questions for product stage and nine separate question for transfer, for platform stage. Then you can ask in the organizations. You don't need to have the answers to allow mind your organization aligned executive team. So it's a great way to get them to see that, oh, this person is thinking ahead of us, which is which means that this person needs to be in our executive team meeting, which means this person has the potential to need stuff. So hopefully, if nothing else, it will give you the questions to ask that get you one step further in your career. So good and yes to all those questions. Really just and again, that was like when I said I was thinking about you know us, and and you all and hub spawn a couple other companies that I've, you know, followed over the years. Those questions I found, let be, very, very provocative in general. So I guess for the sake of time, let's go because I we've you mentioned market operations, velocity expansion off the top. I'm just going to read the one simple question. There's a lot more for folks listening. There's a lot more in the book about this move framework again, market operations, velocity expansion, but I'm going to read the question that corresponds with each of those and I'd love for you to add whatever you would like like. First of all, did you start with moving then come up with the words? Like I work really well, I always wonder about because, like they had dude, it was this just like like this is a lightning strike, like what happened here. But so market, whom should we market to? You know, for a service like bombomb you know I'm I'm of the mind that basically anyone working in a professional capacity cannon should be using video messages in place of some of their emails, text messages Linkedin Message, just slack messages, etcetera. Anyone should do it. But we can't go to market that way. So whom should we mark it to? And again for the GIG again. I just want to call people back to this. A hundred and twenty percent nurr number. That's what happens when you're selling the right stuff to the right people. It just all clicks. Next is operations. What do we need in order to operate effectively? Velocity? When can we scale our business? This one's super interesting and I would love a half an hour of your time just on this, because I feel like everyone's like, okay, we closed a couple deal, step on the gas, let's scale this thing. But they've overlooked market and operations and a lot of those cases they're trying to scale things they don't understand, which is they're going to wind up scaling failure rather than success. And then expansion. Where can we grow the most, like of all the things that are happening, where where do we grow the most? And so share anything you have on any of those questions or how the acronym came together. Well, I mean because there's so much to unpack in the boat. Totally.

I bridish it. You. You leaning into it and and I think one of the interesting things, like I feel like it took me a while even to really say this out bloud because it sounds it's going to sound very narcissics, narcissistic or maybe cornate, but I feel like I have a gift of frameworks and the way my brain works is that everything is a framework because unless it's the framework, it's not practical to me to implement. Again, the book is not supposed to be inspirational, although it should inspire you to great do great things and will have performing revenue teams, but it's supposed to also be very, very functional and practical. So the first book, you think about flip my funnel, that's a framework. You think about my abm, is bb book, the team, target, engage activate measure, is a framework. This was no different. But we started with about fifteen questions when we were into in doing these interviews, and it came down after about eleven interviews. Are So Brian, Brian Brown, my co author, and I we were like guy, it all comes out of these four things and we're starting and it obviously it wasn't move at that time, but it was all these different things and then it's a matter of as you know, it's a very igerative process and one date was like boom, like this, this makes sense, like it's every company's in the sort of figuring out their next move. The questions remain the same, but the answer is a different based on the stage of the business. So this questions, these questions are not not not a point in time question that you frizzle loud or die. Knowe. The quite. For example, Letgis take one of them, operations. That is one of the most highly talked about and we got into this book and we have templates and score card for people to download on the move bookcom without even email address, like you're so bad at marketing, like no address, need email adders. So you can go to the move bookcom and down all these these frameworks right there. But think about operations. How can you operate my business effectively? That's a very important question that CEOS are asking and thinking about. Your executive missing about it. But if you're in a problem market stage, the answer that question is that, well, maybe your finance group or maybe you're somebody in the APPS is kind of doing it, and that is okay, that is fine, and you may be okay up to almost five ten million dollar business because you don't have a lot of other things, and that's okay. So we created score cards specifically for you at that stage. But if you're in product market space, then at that stage you're going to need more things to think about apart from just pipeline and revenue. You actually might look at velocity and deal size, as a matter of fact. So we gread in a new spork card for product market stage. So the operations question, at that time you may actually have maybe a marketing APPS and a sales ops and a customer ops. Like you may have multiple ops. People make sense at that stage of business. But as you go to platform market stage again we created a new framework, new score card called the good markets for God at that. So you can look at product sales, product usage, marketing, customer success, all these numbers. We look at it every Tuesday. That's what matterly of ahead of REV UP. She taught me that, so I included that in the book. But at that time you'll have REV ups. Is something that you need. So the question is still the same. How will operate my business effectively? But based on the stage of the business, your answers are going to be different and I want to empathize everybody because it this is a transformation. is to change. It takes time and it's okay to be in a certain stage for a good period of time. Yeah, and I mean the vision that I had there, as you kind of like maybe see the book again, even a little bit differently. It reminds me of something I said when I reviewed the book, which is that laying the three piece together into the same table as market operations, velocity and expansion. It's just masterful job. Like to take all of this input, to take all of your experience, to lay it all together and then to be able to peel it back apart and give people questions they can ask relative to these things just really, really well done. Any other thoughts? Is We could scary to conclude here. Any other thoughts on what you learned in the process, what you're most excited about, where this all goes from here, like anything else you'd like to share about this journey that you've been on for some time now? Yeah, I did. You know,... authors, we both can recognize that. You know, book is just an opening into a much bigger thing. So I do believe my first two books help does build a business of terminus that, you know, is thankfully doing really well and this book is, in a way, of both books that wrote for marketers. This book is written for CEOS and the C level executive. So I'm not shy about the fact that this is not for everybody. So I don't want everybody in the world to buy this book. I want people who wanted to want change and transformation in the business. That's who this book is for. And what I'm recognizing and realizing is that I'm really enjoying being in a twelve people team meeting, as it be. The CEOS that inviting and they're debating on this stuff. I thought we were product market fit. How could you say that? You're not a probably like you know you, I could. And so all I have to do is vocket in and ask these three of all provagative questions and sit back and see these people one wrestle with it and then see the Aha moments for them to come in. Oh yeah, that's why we're going to market is broken. That's what we're not able to do this, so let's go fix it. So now, all of a sudden, Eton what I'm seeing, which has been the most amazing experience, that I'm getting to be on the side is I'm seeing people become business leaders with specialization in their own functions. I'm seeing a CMO coming to this conversation with saying, Oh, I'm a business leader. Now I understand the stage of the business and the questions I need to do and now I need to bring my marketing expert expertise to solve this challenge that we have or the opportunity in front. So it's just awesome to see people transforming from their functional roles into business leaders and I think it's just a beautiful thing to watch. That's awesome infer just want to emphasize this. Approximately how many interviews and approximateity, how many hours of interviewed? Ballpark? Yeah, I mean we we did. I mean you know that a lot of this came out of a lot of the flip my funnel episodes and podcasts. So we're right about thousand episodes on that. So there's a lot of that coming in. We did about twenty five actual executive like hour and a half interviews or so, and then a bunch of polls through linkedin and peak community, a bunch of email surveys and stuff like that, and and ask the Covid we just use that time to pick up the phone and talk to anyone, because every for a window of time with and you know, the wood was just open to talk to anyone. Everybody was ready to pick up the foot and talk. And so I feel like this when hundreds of you know, hours into it love it. And so the point I wanted to make for listeners who are wondering whether or not they want to become a business leader within their function. Perhaps you're not yet in the sea suite. This isn't just sangrum and Brian sharing what a ton of what they've learned in their time. It Terminus building a successful company and, you know, navigating the value of death, among other things along the way. This is the best thinking from contemporary people who are highly successful in a variety of roles. Hours and hours of material distilled down and again masterfully laid into a couple of frameworks and templates on other things. and was that the move Bookcom Sangroum? Yes, the move bookcom yeah, and of course the book is called move. Okay, if you've enjoyed this time with sangroom, as I have, check out episode eighty four of this podcast. That was also a sangroom ten rules for building a category and a that was good. Yeah, and and definitely a master at building category and community. And then earlier episode forty two was also with Sangrum our. First episode here, five ways internal alignment can elevate your customer experience. That was definitely sales and marketing and perhaps even a sales marketing customer success conversation about creating some alignment early on. Tangroom for I let you go on and ask you the same two questions I've asked you twice before. First, who do you like to think or mention? Is someone who's had a positive impact on your life, for your career? And then second, it's obviously not this grocery store we talked about earlier. I give it not or a shout out to a company or brand you appreciate for the experience that they...

...deliver for you as a customer. Yeah, well, you know, I've shared I've been obviously this family involved and like my wife, my mom, I like everybody involved, and I've shared that. In this particular case I wanted to really thank tk our new CEO and specifically because I think, I mean, this is I mean, you know, like when you do stuff like this like there is no Roi our conversation on it, like you just say, this sounds like a great idea, I'm going for it. He's like, yeah, go for it, and and they're all these values of death happening in the business every day that that you know. You know one could say, all right, stop that, focus on this, but he never did that and I applaud leaders like that who actually have a longer view of where the business is going on and and give this olive branch to each one of the team leaders to say I trust you, I think this is something the right thing to do. I don't know the right time is now or never, but it's never. I'm never going to know exactly. So if you're on it and you believe in and let's go do it. And I feel like companies need to bet on stuff like that. So I really, really want to give a shout out to dk to help support me. Awesome. And how about a company your brand. You appreciate man. Well, obviously you key. I can't say not bombomb because I wont. I truly do like an the fact that every time. But even my wife knows you so well now because I've video from you for every conversation, you do the every video and he's like, Oh my God, like how does he do these videos? And then you are like the best representation of it because you use your own product with a talking about your product in the best way possible. So I love that. I love the way Gong is running their business and it's I met and Woudi and all of these folks. They're just doing a really, really good job and I love the fact in that, because everybody thinks that the way to grow is to change your team, change your leaders, change your vision, change all the stuff and gone. For example, I'm it has been there from day one as a see of the company has led. It doesn't happen every time. Woody has been a CMO. He wasn't as Dr became be and then became a market and then, because seem, by the same company and now it's a billion dollar company. So they have already proven the fact that it's not the vision or the mission that you have to order the people that he needed to change to be successful. It's actually that you know, if you have the right team and if you have the right go to market process, you actually can do deliver really great but obviously the great product. So I feel like they proved something that I've been looking to see in more companies out there. Awesome. Thank you so much for the kind words. I appreciate it. Thank you for spending time with me and with all of us. Again, congratulations of being the first three time guest. I don't know that that comes as an award, but I feel like I feel like we should plot our next two conversation time. A word or something. Well, my ward is this book. Man, I got this, your first copy of the book, and I got it and I looked through it and I still have I kept this card from you, so it's still right there with me. So yes, sir, I got it. Awesome. Well, I appreciate how can folks follow up? Obviously you're very, very active on Linkedin. You already gave the move Bookcom. Is there anywhere else you send people who want to learn more about you? About the book, about terminus, about peak community, so many places you could send people. Yeah, I know what I'm so what I started to do Ethan really as we're doing this in depth conversation like we did today, and it might be hard for for a lot of people to like absorb all the information and stuff. So I get that and hopefully people got one thing that they would like. Oh that's interesting. So my challenge to everybody is that, if you like this episode, just tell Ethan or I on a linkedin message what was the one thing that inspired you to do something or take action, or what is the one thing you want to learn more about, because both Ethan and I we can promise you right now that we will respond back like we're not like high flying, sitting on a chair like you know, blasting out like you know something in the world. No, no, we'll really believe this. We are excited about this. Really engage. So if there's something that got your don't care what your role is, we just want to know this was inspiring to you. So we want to... to have a conversations. Just DM either one of us and will love Duke Connect. Awesome. Thank you for including me in that. It's a hundred percent right. These ideas are important, they're valuable. I'm so glad that your CEO shared the vision that you had before you set out on this move journey. Thank you for breaking it apart with us and hope you have a great rest of your day really appreciate me in you do it, then thanks everybody for listening. The digital, virtual and online spaces where we work every day are noisier and more polluted than ever, and the problem is only getting worse. At risk or relationships and Revenue Joint BOMBOMBS, Steve Passanelli and Ethan Butt, along with eleven other experts in sales, marketing, customer experience, emotional intelligence, leadership and other disciplines, to learn a new way to break through the noise and pollution. Human Centered Communication. A new book out now on Fast Company press. Learn more by visiting Bombombcom book or search human centered communication wherever you buy books. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit Bombombcom podcasts.

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