The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 131 · 1 year ago

131. Returning the Human Voice to Marketing w/ Mark Schaefer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Are we using technology to create barriers between us and our customers? Or are we doubling down on things we know that our customers respond to, like a human voice that’s friendly, accessible, and even vulnerable?

In this episode, I interview Mark Schaefer, COO at B Squared Media and author of Marketing Rebellion, about returning the human voice to the center of marketing.

Mark also talks with me about:

- Cumulative advantage vs. competitive advantage

- Two thirds of your marketing is done by your customers

- A fracture is a business opportunity

- The role of momentum in change

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- {grow} blog

- BusinessesGrow.com

- The Cumulative Advantage

- Marketing Rebellion

- Mark on LinkedIn

- Mark on Twitter

- Keith Reynold Jennings

- The North Face

- Glossier

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

Why is loyalty in the clime? And it's because marketers have lost their connection to emotion that we've become too obsessed with the MARKTEX stack and the Algorithms and automation and actually taking people out of the marketing equation. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Today we're talking about the human company and the cumulative advantage. Our guest is the best selling author of nine books, including marketing rebellion, the most human company wins known how to build an unleash your personal brand in the digital age and his latest, cumulative advantage, how to build momentum for your ideas, business and life against all odds. You can also read his work in his blog grow and here I'm on his podcast, the marketing companion. He's a keynote speaker and consultant for clients ranging from startups to global brands like Adidas. Johnson and Johnson and Dell. He also serves as Chief Operating Officer at the Digital Agency be squared media and teaches at Rutgers University. Mark Shaffer, welcome to the customer experience podcast, Ethan. I'm delighted to be here with you. have been looking forward to this. Yeah, me too. I've read several of your books. I really appreciate the running theme of Humanity. Just putting that intro together, I was just pleased to be on your calendar at all. Well, let's talk about customer experience. All right, let's do that. Before we get into it, I would love to just ask you something because it's personal to me. In the cumulative advantage and in the context of American style Bacon you refer to. You are one prepared interviewer and, just I read yourself, I want to know about this in particular. So, in that context, you referred to jazz and basketball as two of our country's most beautiful gifts to the world. I agree with you on jazz and basketball and particular, I just wondering if you had any personal thoughts on that. Well, you know, I've been the seventy two countries around the world and I've had bacon, and probably all of them, and American Bacon we is amazing, but we could probably solve a lot of our diplomatic problems in the world if we just gave our bacon the way we should. We should just create a barge full of American Bacon and send it the China right now and everything would be great, awesome. Okay, so customer experience. When I say that, what does it mean to you? You know, it's hard to define experience without using the word experience. But when I was a young guy in just starting out in business, my boss had a sign on his desk that I didn't really understand and he said a dissatisfied customer is a terrorist. And as I sort of matured in business and got through sales and went into marketing and I had a customer service team working for me, I realized that that that's what it meant really. And these this was before the Internet days. So today the customer is the marketer. Two thirds of our marketing is occurring without us and it can be good and it can be bad. And if you are creating experiences events, if you are creating service and stories that people are excited about, then that is going to be the best marketing you could ever imagine. And if you're creating stories and experiences in the world that...

...people complain about, that is terrorism, corporate terrorism. So to me that's really what customer experience is about. Yeah, I love the threat side of it because it's so visceral and the tools that goes potential terrorists have are much more powerful than whenever you read that sign initially, and so it's a right. Yeah, I mean it's something to really obviously pay attention to, and I think this idea of to the depositive side of it, is turning your best customers into your best marketers, is kind of the positive side of that. In your opinion, should customer experience? You know, obviously it's a bit on the rise or it's become popular as a term and as a practice. In your opinion or observation, should have titles and teams and departments, or do you see it more is just as kind of guiding, unifying concept that transcends department and should be shared? Like give any thoughts on on it as a practice versus of philosophy? Have some very strong ideas about it actually, because it really gets down to to culture. And Look, I've, as you said in your and your fine intro, and thank you for that. By the way, I've worked with a lot of different customers. I mean the other day it's funny a stroll scrolling through dropbox because I've got a file for every, you know, big customer that I've worked with, like wow, I work with a lot of a lot of companies and one of the things that you learn having that sort of a broad experience is the power of culture. The culture that is good to determine your marketing. Your culture is your marketing if you're a company that says we're customer centric and the customers at the heart of everything you do. But if you don't act that way, if it's not sponsored at the very top of your company, that is not the way your company is going to act, it's not the way it's going to react. And guess what, that's the story that's going to be told about you on the web and and beyond. So this idea of customer experience, it's more than a person, is more than the department. It's the culture. It really is the culture to have that empathy and and that support to make a difference and to create positive conversations about your your company so good. And even if you do assign the title or a team or whatever, without the culture they're just going to be an island struggling, essentially the same as your teams were independently in Silod prior to that. You really tea up there. This concept, I think, of the most human company wins again the subtitle of marketing rebellion. Talk a little bit about that. A couple things, I guess start here. What is human? I think you already said some of the words that you mean in describing a healthy culture that is going to produce an excellent experience for people and a remarkable experience for people. But you know, in this most human company wins concept, just talk a little bit about human or humanity in this business context. Well, one of the dramatic statistics I present in that book came from a remarkable research study by Mackenzie. It showed that eighty three percent of our customers are shop around customers. The loyalty has been in sharp decline over the last twenty or twenty five years now. There's a clue in that McKenzie report as to what's going on. Why is loyalty in decline, and it's because marketers have lost their connection to emotion that we've become too obsessed with the MARKTEX stack and the Algorithms and automation and actually taking people out of the marketing equation. The reason I...

...got into marketing I actually started out as a journalism major and when I was a junior I took a marketing class and I opened up this book principles of Marketing by Dr Philip Cottler as the Standard Textbook for almost all marketing one and one classes, and Dr Cotler said marketing is a combination of psychology, sociology and anthropology, and right then I thought that is the coolest career. Wow, that's what I want to do. And what Dr Cottler was saying was marketing is all things human. Psychology, Socie, Allo, G anthropology. marketings all things human. Now, in a remarkable turn of events, while I was writing the marketing rebellion book, I heard Dr Cotler on a podcast, now eighty seven years old, and here's what he said. What's missing today in marketing is the human voice. That's what we all desire, as what we all are crying out for a voice that's friendly and accessible and even vulnerable, and that meant so much to me that here's Dr Cotler, all these years, still setting a straight on what marketing is supposed to be, and I think that's a good filter. Ethan as we strive to have a more human centric view of marketing is, do we really have a human voice or are we using stock photos? Are We using legalistic language? Are we using technology to set up barriers between us at our customers, or are we using technology to reduce barriers between us at our customers? Are we connecting with our customers in ways that they hate, like spam and robocalls and lead nurturing, which is just a friendly way of saying, I'm going to keep bothering you too, you block me, or are we doubling down on things that we know our customers love and respond to? Are we coming alongside them to help them at their point of need instead of manipulating them? That's what marketing needs to be about today. So good. It's like it's what life should be about. It, it's what business should be about. It because, a consequence, it's what marketing should be about. I love that. For folks who are listening, I as a podcast listener myself. I'm a big fan of the sixty two back button and I would click it probably two or three times right there and go through that again, because, I mean, that's just it was just such a wonderful and fair and honest and intuitive take that somehow, you know, we still I you know. I was going to ask you when did we go wrong and and why? You know, why do we need to talk about humanity? Wise? Humanity one of the words in the subtitle of your blog, like but you've already answered it here in it. You know, part of it is. One of my theories is that it's an echo effect of our industrial past over the past couple of centuries, where we built up mass production, mass marketing, mass media, mass everything with interchangeable parts and interchangeable processes and interchangeable people. But you raised instant in beginning that that answer to the question. You raise the more recent one, which is we're just so enamored of the inexpensive and powerful technology in front of us that for some reason we want to apply these tools that can enable us to bring the barriers down to people and empower our team members to build better relationships with customers. But instead we want to take these tools and,...

...instead of doing that, which they're perfectly equipped to do, we want to apply them in these mass, industrial, uniform, repeatable ways. Yeah, and I think, I think the thoughts connect very well here between this conversation. The first question you asked me about customer experience, because increasingly the role, traditional role of the Como, is now becoming C Xo, right, customer experience officer or manager director or whatever. And the reason is, as I think companies are starting to get back in touch with where we need to be as corporations, is that people are people are over it. As you said, the subtitle of the Marketing Rebellion Book is the most Human Company wins. Also, the most human university wins, the most human insurance company wins, the most human they ail salon wins. It's that's what people desire and that's why marketing rebellion, I hope it's a clarion call and a wakeup call for an entirely new mindset to think about consumers in a new way and then in a respectful way, and that's what's needed in the world today. Completely agree. That seems like a good spot to transition to cumulative advantage, because I don't. I mean we could probably continue going on that track for a long time, but you've provided such clarity and a nice call to action to both marketing rebellion and cumulative advantage. Were insanely well researched. I can tell that you just got this kind of passion or bug or Itch or whatever you however you think of it, news to pursue these ideas really deeply. Cumulative advantage was fun to read. It was in a very personal voice to by the way. I felt at times like I was just hanging out with you, and it's got tons of stories and examples. I guess, to get going on it. Share the main principle, whether or not you fold in the matthew effect is optional. But you know what is the what is the main idea of this cumulative advantage that can be used to build momentum. For I our ideas are businesses and for our lives. I love that element to this idea that sometimes I was thinking about myself and sometimes I was thinking about the team in the company I work with and the customers we serve. Yeah, well, when I write a book I have to solve a problem, I have to solve a big, big problem that I'm curious about and I get obsessed with it. And the problem I was solving with this book is that today, being great is not enough. It sounds weird, but the number one role, I think that all of us are striving to figure out in our lives and our businesses, certainly in marketing, is we're trying to answer one question. How can we be heard? How can we be seen and discovered in this world of overwhelming information density and the competition is increasing at this insane number. You know, I use this example where. Look, if you were someone early on Youtube, you could post pictures of cats doing stupid things and you could go viral and get a lot of money from advertising. Last year the number one person on youtube was a guy named Jimmy Nicholson. He goes by Mr Beast. He's made tens of millions of dollars on YouTube. He spends on average three hundred thousand dollars to produce one video. He spent as much as a million dollars to produce one video. Now that's what it takes to be at the top, and so these communication channels,...

...these content channels, are filling up with this amazing content. How do we stand out? And this is what I became obsessed with. If we're doing our best work, if we're great and following all the rules of content and social media and SEO, how do we get to that next level? And so I went down this rabbit hole of momentum and it took me back to one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight, where some of the early sociological research began. And, without getting into all of the ideas, principle of cumulative advantage is a well, well researched, documented, even mathematically algorithmic if that's now a verb or an adjective. It shows that if you have some small advantage in your life, if you play your cards rate, you can build momentum and so that your advantage will increase over time in an unstoppable way over your competition. Now the simple example, the simple explanation that that the sociologists use when teaching about this as a bank account. As someone starts with a thousand dollars in the bank and another person is tenzero dollars in the bank, the difference is Ninezero dollars. But if they both get a five percent interest rate, all things being equal, in ten years that difference will be almost fifteen thousand dollars. They both have a bank account, they're both getting interest, but that initial advantage creates this gap, this momentum. Now it doesn't just have to be money. It can be experienced. It could be education, it could be you know someone that you meet, it could be an idea. HOW DID BILL GATES GET TO BE BILL GATES? His initial advantage was that when he was a teenager he was the only team probably in the country that had access to early computer prototypes. He was coding before anybody else. That was his initial advantage. He made good decisions, he worked hard, he played his cards right and that momentum became unstoppable. And so what I discovered is that there's a pattern to this, that there are certain things that happen that create and propel momentum. And now if we could become aware what are those things, how do those things happen over and over again for some people and not others, then we can start to think about our lives and our ideas and our businesses in a different way and maybe make choices that create momentum for ourselves. Love it and the Matthew effect is rich get richer, port get poor. This idea that the momentum builds, which was key in the beginning and for folks who are listening who have not yet read it, a recommended be the premise that that run this this thread that runs through the whole thing is why does Tim Ferris Know Oprah and Mark Shaffer doesn't? And it's you know. Certainly you've built advantages for yourself and I love your resolve, which we will not give away, as to why you don't personally know Oprah and Tim Ferris does. So there's a five part framework. It's the initial advantage, the seam, the sonic boom reaching up and constancy. Let's spend a minute in the seam. I'm just going to define it in your own words, but because I think we can talk business and we can talk customer experience really in all of these and again, there are many good stories and examples throughout, but the seam was especially interesting to me and I found myself reflecting on it quite a bit. New seems are opening always and endlessly, and undefended opportunity can come from changing customer needs, exploiting customer competitor laziness, specialized data analysis or the application of new technology. So it's really this. This is identifying the advantage in determining how how big is this...

...seem? How long might it persist, how defensible is it, etcetera. Talk a little bit about the scene. Yeah, well, when I was growing up in business, strategy was we literally did five year plans, fifty page documents, five year plans, and Oh my gosh. Yeah, I had to do these things on paper in the early days, and but today, with the speed of culture and the speed of business, that these little fractures, these little these these changes, these shifts, they're happening all the time now on a macro level. What's the biggest fracture in the status quo we've seen ever? The pandemic. It's affected every single person in every single way. And I predicted last March. Now, last March everything is shutting down and everybody's in crisis, and I said there will be more business startups in the next six months and anytime in American history, and that came true. It's been a sad time, a tragic time, with the number of businesses that have failed, but we've had more startups then failures. Why? Because there's a fracture in everything. How people learn, how people work, how people eat, how people work out, running in place in your apartment right. I had a long conversation with a I think the fellows title is the head of global brand narrative at Adidas. He told me the pandemic redefined sport. That's no small thing. The pandemic has redefined almost everything and every one of those little fractures is a business opportunity. And how do we apply our ideas, our initial advantage, our core competencies to solve those problems? That's a seam and you don't wait till next year. You go now, as fast as you can, as hard as you can, you burst through that scene with all your power and all your energy and see what you've got and you just might have a big business. Yeah, so good. I mean this this changing customer needs as the key one, and of course the pandemic is a very dramatic version of that. But even a decade ago, these people's needs change all the time, and that just needs, but even the priority of those needs. I mean we all have needs and wants. Sometimes we can't satisfy them and so we shift the priority in them, and I think this constant being constantly in touch with customers and customer feedback what's going on in the market, what frontline employees are seeing and hearing and observing, could probably help us identify seems that are perhaps closing on us, are new ones that are opening, and I think it's you also ask six amazing questions. I won't restate them all now, but for folks who are listening, there are six key questions to ask yourself related to the seam that I think you'll find very provocative and could probably be asked by any leadership team, at least quarterly, just to make sure that you're not missing opportunities or or missing them, you know, not becoming one of those competitors who's lazy that could be exploited. It resulted to a scene. One more question related to it. Another quote from the chapter on uncertainty. Swing too early or too late and you risk missing the seam. So here you just suggested, when you identify it and confirm it, run at it with everything you have. Just want to give you a quick story about my experience here at bombomb with our team it. Just get your thoughts on it. So our company was legally founded in two thousand and six, before the iphone even existed, and the original founders vision is alive and well today, which is using video messages in place of what would otherwise be plan typed out text, to be more clear, to be more personal, to be more human, to have people feel...

...like they know you did, to put things in lay person's terms, etcetera. For All these benefits, what if I could get facetoface with more people more often in the communication channels we use all the time, using video? So that was two thousand and six boots trapped company. I joined in two thousand and eleven, couple hundred customers. Now we're over sixtyzero customers. Little to no competition back then, and whatever existed back in two thousand and eleven, a lot of them don't exist today, however, we have a lot more competitors we it's some of it is this. Some of those companies are sitting on tens of millions of dollars of venture capital from some of the most prestigious VC firms on the planet. I feel like we were swinging early. Are Two cofounders were swinging early on it, but it's also been this slow, patient, steady growth, which is another thing I've read and heard from you and your own work is, you know, this consistency. We just stayed at it, we listen to our customers, we continue to innovate, and now here we are and what seems like a big scene for a lot of companies like if, if big VC firms are dumping tens of millions of dollars into this space, there's obviously some seam identified. What do you think about anything? I just shared their no, you're exactly right. And as you were talking I was thinking about my experiences where there's a story I told in the book. I used to work in the packaging business and if you look at all the research that a glass bottle with a cork is the worst way to store wine and I was trying to sell aluminum cans into the wine business and of course everybody turned up their nose. And right now, in this moment, which is probably fifteen years after I was trying to push this idea, the hottest growing segment of wine is wine in cans. It's not because I was wrong, it's not because the research was was incorrect, it's because something shifted. And here is what shifted? Today's generation should have young people. They are they want to be on the go, they want to have a picnic wherever. They don't want a heavy wine bottle to throw in a backpack. And then you got to have an opener. They want a can. They want to can't throw it in there. It's good for the environment. You pop the thing open, it chills really quickly. Those are all things we knew fifteen years ago, but the world wasn't ready. The seem opened now, and so I would have been a hero if I had the idea right now, so that you know I was. I swung too early and it wasn't a mistake because you take your best shot. But certainly the logic was there, the product was there, but the market wasn't. The people weren't there. Yeah, it's been really interesting, and even still migration into aim. Some of that's cultural, some of it is no one has pioneered it. Therefore it's not safe. So maybe for anyone to go first to see how viable the ideas are. So much there it's been, and that's been what's so interesting about our own position is the concept is strong and for people who adopt it it's I I hear. I've heard it many, many times. I have personal relationships with hundreds of our customers and I hear it all the time like this didn't just change my business, has changed my life. Like, once you make this a habit, it's life changing, but it's it's still feels very early in this space that we've been in for a dozen years, but it'll be moving quickly, just like, yes, I absolutely see boxed wine and canned wine in my neighborhood's door. Yeah, yeah, a couple quotes for you to react to. You guess we do this. Maybe's a speed round from cumulative advantage. I love this one. How do we take the time, even schedule the time, to explore things that are not directly related to your immediate goals? Well, that's a problem right now, certainly in the pandemic, and what I was talking about there was the importance of serendipity and randomness. That's how momentum starts and if...

...we're just locked in our offices like I am right now, on zoom calls all day, we don't experience that randomness. And so a challenge, I think, to for energy, for new ideas, for creativity, is we've got to find ways to connect with new people. From a psychological perspective, it's almost impossible to really think out of your box. Your box, your mental framework, was more or less completed by the time you're fifteen years old. Breakthrough thinking comes from combining boxes, mashing up with other people in Weird ways that create new ideas, a new moment. Absolutely I've experienced that so much and my own like when I listen to podcast or I read books or I read blogs, you know that the idea doesn't have any necessarily any practical application for me immediately in the moment. But you know a few months later and at work, that was always the hallway conversation station where you're talking like I'm never in a meeting with this person. We're in completely different teams. We don't work on anything directly, we never have. But when I run into them, you know I learned something new or interesting that changes the way I think. And so, yeah, I'm changing my box and I missed serendipity. Okay, when you commit to a goal that far exceeds your current capability, you'll need a new environment that organically supports your goal, a context that forces you to become more than you currently are. Yeah, I mean I think I've experienced that so much in my life and probably the most profound lesson, one of the best, best business lessons I ever had really, was I used to work for a company that made aluminum. You never see those truck commercials where there's like molten metal and pouring and there's like sparks going all over the place? That's where I work, that's the company. It's very hazardous environment potentially. There's big equipment and heat and molten things and people got hurt and we had a new chairman come to our company and he said we are going to eliminate injuries in our company and people thought what you know yours? What are you smoking, dude? And he said no, we're going to do it. So he had to create a whole new environment, a whole new mindset it. He had to bring in New People and the people who wouldn't accept that mindset he got rid of them and all of a sudden is like oh my gosh, and it started to work and by the time he was he left a CEO. Our injury statistics at this metal company were lower than IBM, which is a white collar workforce. Right, working in one of our plants was safer than working in an IBM office. Now, if you want big, big results, you got to surround yourself with the people and the resources to help you get those big results. Yeah, and I think once you make that commitment, as it sounds like the leader did in that plant or in that giant company, that probably multiple points. That commitment itself is attractive. I think people are fundamentally attracted to bold, clear visions. Yeah, and so not only do you have to to get it going, but I think at a certain point it probably starts to be get itself, once the groundwork is laid, that it becomes attractive to people. Maybe last one in this past, and I love the way you devoted so much of the end of the book to this idea, which I'm only going to capture with one quote. We had multiple pages on the spirit behind it. Don't just lend a hand, be the hand and help those in this world who are being left behind. Well, that's a big one, Ethan, it is. That's I saved it. Yeah. Well, so writing a book for me is like getting a master's degree. You read and...

...research and right for two years and it can't help but change you. It's an immersive, profound experience and one of the things that haunted me as I was writing this book is this idea that all of us are writing the crest of a wave that started a long time ago. Some of US are writing Bill Gates waves. They're huge and they're towering and they're overpowering, and some of us are writing blue collar waves. We can create momentum, but it is we might have to work a little harder. I come from a blue collar family from, you know, from from Pittsburgh, and some of us aren't writing a wave at all. We're being pulled under by the undertow. And what haunted me about this book is that that this book. Was it really for everybody? And the answer is no, it's not. In fact, every book like this inherently is elitist. It assumes you have the money to buy the book, it assumes you have the time to read the book, it assumes you have the resources to surround yourself to make these goals right. And there's a large part of our society that's just being pulled under. Their one broken car away from crisis, their one unexpected medical bill away from crisis. Let alone build momentum. But we know now, because of this book, we because of this work, that momentum starts with a spark, an idea, encouragement to not just lend a hand, but get down and really pull someone up into that new level of momentum. And that is accessible, that is doable by any person, by any person, and when we do that it sends a ripple through history, through history, and we can all do that. And that's how I sort of the called call to action at the end of the book. Absolutely beautiful again with the sixty two back button on that one, and absolutely right. I mean there's so many people who are being dehumanized every day by system or by circumstance. Very often it is not elective. I think it's easy for people to like point fingers and say in point blame and, you know, put people in their places, when in fact there is victimhood. It can be overcome, but it but to your point, this idea of giving the gift of your time and attention to other people a allows them to feel seen and heard and appreciated and valued, which is all any human and being needs and wants in a deep, fundamental way. But it also it's so interesting to hear people and to think about my own experiences. You know, just a single conversation can change the way someone thinks or looks at the entire world and and they're just a serious change in perspective. It doesn't necessarily have to be this, you know, forty hour commitment on one person's party could simply be just at that moment, that insight, that gift of time and attention, as much or as little as that might be. Yeah, that's right. It's not that hard to seek it out either. In our interconnected world on the web, you can sense when people are in trouble. You can see when people are suffering in some way, and that's one of the things I try to do when I see someone something happened and I'll just call him up and I'll say, you know, do you need you know, what can I do? Do you need somebody to talk to? And even that can help send things the other direction. Really good. For folks who are listening, I always share other episodes that you might enjoy and in this case I'm going to choose three people who were all included in the cumulative advantage. So on episode five of this...

...podcast and Handley. We called that episode the Holy Grail of connecting with your customers. By the way, that's email episodes fourteen and sixty seven. She is one of just a few two time guests here on the PODCAST, Samantha Stone. Episode Fourteen we called AI and human relationships, and episode sixty seven was right at the outset of the pandemic and it was about crisis communication and there's a strong themes of empathy and just really making sure people felt hurt and appreciate it in that moment for who they are, not just what they already you or your company. And then episode sixty with Matt Sweezy, the context marketing revolution. Just titled that just like his book, and in fact he was the one who referred me to marketing rebellion. And those two books, Context Marketing Revolution and marketing rebellion, not only share this revolution rebellion concept, but they have a lot in common in spirit and I recommend both reads. So before I let you go, Mark First thank you so much for your time. I could have easily done this for twice as long, but again, you're busy, busy man, and I want to let you get back to your work because I enjoy consuming it myself. But before I let you go, I'm going to ask you to think or mention a person who's had a positive impact on your life, for your career, and give a shoutout or a nod to a company. You're a brand that you really appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Well, those three people you mentioned all would be in that category. They're awesome, awesome people and they've been great personal friends to me over the years. I would also add someone who had an extremely important impact on this book, a felon named Keith rental. Old Jennings Heath is absolutely one of the most brilliant men that I know, a real visionary when it comes to marketing, especially purpose driven marketing, and he helped a lot in this book. You know, I started writing this in two thousand and nineteen, before the pandemic, and then the whole world seemed to explode and I had three or four chapters written and I sent them to Keith in the spring of two thousand and twenty and I said, is this still a book? And he wrote me an email back and he said yes, at all capital letters. He said not only is this a great book? He said, this is your legacy, this is your greatest book, and so that gave me the courage and the validation to just keep on going. So Keith meant a lot to me and it's help with this book. Awesome. And how about a brand or a company that comes to mind? Well, you know I love so many brands right now. I think a company that is just consistently excellent in everything they do with marketing is north face, and I've kind of like gone up against North face in some of my projects and I know how good they are. Another copy I really love right now, smaller company is is Glossy A. It's a company featured in the marketing rebellion book and it just follows almost every principle of how to be the most human company in your space. And they are killing it. If they deserve all their success because they're doing marketing in a new way, in a visionary way, led by their founder, Emily Weiss. That's awesome. I love all three of the things you mentioned there. I love the support that you got on the book when everything was maybe up for crabs. I like both companies that you mentioned and glossier is one of only a handful of companies. That's been mentioned twice. You can imagine the world of possibility when I ask every guest that question. But my dread board, formerly of hub spot and currently of SASS works, also mentioned them allow for similar reasons to makes me want to go back and I need to tally these all up and organize them anyway. I appreciate that so much. I know if someone is listening right now that they enjoyed the conversation. They may or may not be familiar with you, but there's certainly here with us now. So how could someone follow up on this? We're going to connect with you the books you've written, your blog, your podcast, you're speaking. Anything...

...else you want to share? Where would you like to send people? Yeah, it's really easy to find me at businesses GROWCOM. My blog is there. My podcast lots of fun resources and you can find a list of all my books, descriptions and and also there's a lot of free goodies, and I don't even ask for an email address. If you go to cumulative advantage page or you go to marketing rebellion page, I'm given away all kinds of work books and videos and extra content. So there's lots of valu valuable goodies there for every one of my books. Awesome. I appreciate what you are sharing with all of us. I appreciate the depth to which you go to get at these ideas and really pursue pursue them till you get to a point of satisfaction. Your level of satisfaction is obviously a high bar and I really appreciate and respect your work in your time here. Continued success. Do you have an awesome afternoon. Thank you, Eathan, and thanks for being so well prepared and this was an excellent interview. Thank you. Clear Communication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pick up the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improve customer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bomb bombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember, the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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