The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 131 · 7 months ago

131. Returning the Human Voice to Marketing w/ Mark Schaefer


Are we using technology to create barriers between us and our customers? Or are we doubling down on things we know that our customers respond to, like a human voice that’s friendly, accessible, and even vulnerable?

In this episode, I interview Mark Schaefer, COO at B Squared Media and author of Marketing Rebellion, about returning the human voice to the center of marketing.

Mark also talks with me about:

- Cumulative advantage vs. competitive advantage

- Two thirds of your marketing is done by your customers

- A fracture is a business opportunity

- The role of momentum in change

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- {grow} blog


- The Cumulative Advantage

- Marketing Rebellion

- Mark on LinkedIn

- Mark on Twitter

- Keith Reynold Jennings

- The North Face

- Glossier

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for The Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

L, why is loyalty in decine and it'sbecause marketers have lost their connection to emotion, that we'vebecome too obsessed with the MARKTEX stack and the Algorithms and automationand actually taking people out of the marketing equation. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here'syour host Ethan Baute today we're talking about the human company and thecumulative advantage. Our guest is the best selling author of nine books,including marketing rebellion. The most human company wins known how to buildan unleashyour personal brand in the digital age and his latest cumulativeadvantage how to build momentum for your ideas, business and life againstall odds. You can also read his work in as blog grow and Herumonis podcast, themarketing companion he's a kynote speaker and consultant for clients,ranging from startups to global brands like Adetus, Johnson and Johnson andDell. He also serves his chief operating officer at the Digital AgencyB, squared media and teaches at ruckers university mark shaffer. Welcome to thecustomer experience podcast. Even I'm delighted to be here with you have beenlooking forward to this yeah me too. I've read several of your books. Ireally appreciate the running theme of humanity, just putting that introtogether. I was just pleased to be on your calendar at all. Well, let's talkabout customer experience all right. Let's do that before we get into it. Iwould love to just ask you something because it's personal to me in thecumulative advantage and in the context of American style Bacon, you refuitToyou're one prepared interviewer. Just I read yourself. I want to know about Tis in particular,so in that context you referrd to jazz and basketball as two of our countries,most beautiful gifts to the world. I agree with you on jazz and basketballan particular I just wondering if you had any personal thoughts on that. Well, you know I've been the seventytwo countries around the world and I've had bacon in probably all of them, andAmerican Bacon Week is amazing, but we could probably solve a lot of ourdiplomatic problems in the world. If we just gave our Baconto away, we shouldwe should just create a barge full of American Bacon and send it to Chinaright now, and everything would be great awesome. Okay, so customer experiencewhen I say that what does it mean to you, you know it's hard to define experiencewithout using the word experience, but when I was a young guy in juststarting out in business, my boss had a sign on his desk that I didn't reallyunderstand, and he said a a dissatisfied. Customer is a terrorist and, as I sort of matured in businessand got through sales and went into marketing- and I had a customer serviceteam working for me, I realized that that that's what it meant really andthese this was before the Internet days. So today the customer is the marketer. Two thirds of our marketing isoccurring without us and it can be good and it can be bad and if you arecreating experiences events, if you are creating service and stories thatpeople are excited about, then that is going to be the best marketing youcould ever imagine and if you're...

...creating stories and experiences in theworld that people complain about, that is terrorism, corporate terrorism. So to me, that'sreally what customer experience is about yeah. I love the threat side ofit because it's so viserol and the tools that those potential terroristshave are much more powerful than whenever you read that sign initially,and so it's right yeah I mean it's something to really obviously payattention to, and I think this idea of to the positive side of it is turningyour best customers into your best. Marketers is kind of the positive sideof that, in your opinion. Should customer experience you know, obviouslyit's a bit on the rise, or it's become popular as a term and as a practice inyour opinion or observation should have titles and teams and departments. Or doyou see it more? Is just this kind of guiding unifying concept thattranscends department and should be shared like give any thoughts on it asa practice versus of philosophy y have some very strong ideas about it?Actually because it really gets down to to culture and look I've, as you saidin your and your fine intro, and thank you for that. By the way I've workedwith a lot of different customers. I mean the other day. It's funny a strollscrowling through Dropbox, because I've got a file for every. You know bigcustomer that I've worked with like wow. I've worked with a lot of a lot ofcompanies and one of the things that you learn having that sort of a broadexperience is the power of culture, the culture that is good to determine yourmarketing. Your culture is your marketing, if you're a company thatsays we're customer centric and the customers at the heart of everythingyou do. But if you don't act that way, if it's not sponsored at the very topof your company, that is not the way your company is going to act. It's notthe way. It's going to react and guess what that's the story? That's going tobe told about you on the web, a D and beyond. So this idea of customerexperience it's more than a person is more than a department. It's theculture. It really is the culture to have that empathy in ind that supportto make a difference and to create positive conversations about yourcompany so good, and even if you do assign the title or a team or whatever,without the culture they're just going to be an island struggling essentiallythe same as our teams ere independently insiloe. Prior to that you really tuneup there. This concept, I think of the most human company, wins again. Thesubtitle of marketing rebellion talk a little bit about that. A couple things.I guess start here. What is human? I think you already said some of thewords that you mean in describing a healthy culture that is going toproduce an excellent experience for people and a remarkable experience forpeople. But you know in this most human company wins concept, just talk alittle bit about human or humanity in this business context. Well, one of thedramatic statistics I present in that book came from a remarkable researchstudied by mackinzie. It showed that eighty three percent of our customersare shop around customers. The loyalty has been in sharp decline over the lasttwenty or twenty five years. Now, there's a clue in that mackinzi reportas to what's going on. Why is loyalty in decline? And it's because marketershave lost their connection to emotion, that we've become too obsessed with theMARKTEC stack and the Algorithms and automation and actually taking peopleout of the marketing equation. The...

...reason I got into marketing I actuallystarted out as a journalism major and when I was a Juior, I took a marketingclass and I opened up this book Principales of Marketing by Dr PhillipCotler. It's The Standard Tec Textbook for almost all marketing oneod oneclasses and Dor cortler said marketing is a combination of psychologysociology and anthropology and right then I thought that is the coolestcareer wow, that's what I want to do and what Dr Cottler was saying wasmarketing is all things human psychology sociology, anthropologyMarketingis, all things human now in a remarkable turn of events. While I was writing the marketingrebellion book, I heard Doctor Cottler on a podcast now eighty seven years old-and here is what he said what's missing today in marketing- is the human voice? That's what we all desire as what weall are crying out for a voice, that's friendly, an accessible and evenvulnerable, and that meant so much to me thathere's doctor Cartler all these years, still setting. U Straight on whatmarketing is supposed to be, and I think that's a good filter ethen is westrive to have a more human centric view of marketing? Is? Do we reallyhave a human voice or are we using stock photos? Are We using legalisticlanguage? Are we using technology to set up barriers between us and ourcustomers, or are we using technology to reduce barriers between us and ourcustomers? Are we connecting with our customers in ways that they hate likespam and Robo calls and Leed nurturing, which is just a friendly way of sayingI'm going to keep bothering you to you block me, or are we doubling down onthings that we know our customers love and respond to? Are we coming alongside them to help them at their point of need,instead of manipulating them? That's what marketing needs to be about today,so good, it's like I mean it's. What life should be about and it's whatbusiness should be about because a consequenceis what marketing should beabout? I love that for folks who are listening. I as a podcast listenermyself, I'm a big fan of the sixty second back button, and I would clickit probably two or three times right there and go fomk that again, because Imean that is just. It was just such a wonderful and fair and honest inintuitive. Take that somehow you know we still, I you know I was going to askyou: When did we go wrong an and why you know why do we sheed to talk abouthumanity, wise humanity, one of the words in the subtitle of your blog like,but you've already answered it here and it you know part of it is. One of mytheories is that it's an echo effect of our industrial past over the pastcouple of centuries, where we built up mass production, mass marketing, massmedia, mass everything with interchangeable parts andinterchangeable processes and interchangeable people. But you grazedins in beginning that that answer to the question you raise the more recentone which is we're just so enamored of the inexpensive and powerful technologyin front of us that for some reason we want to apply these tools that canenable us to bring the barriers down to people and empower our team members tobuild better relationships with...

...customers. But instead we want to takethese tools and instead of doing that, which they're perfectly equipped to do.We want to apply them in these mass industrial, uniform, repeatable ways. Yeah- and I think I think the dhots connect very wellhere between this conversation n. The first question you asked me aboutcustomer experience because increasingly the rorl traditional roleof the CMO is now becoming cxo right, customer experience, officer or manager,director or whatever, and the reason is, as I think, companies are starting toget back in touch with where we need to be, as corporations is that people arepeople are over it. As you said, the subtitle of the Marketing RebellionBook is the most Human Company wins also the most Human University WIBS,the most human insurance company wins the most human nal solon winds is that'what people desire and that's why marketing rebellion. I hope it's aclarion call and a wakeup call for an entirely new mindset to think aboutconsumers in a new way and Ein a respectful way and that's what's neededin the world today completely agree. That seems like a good spot to transition to cumulative advantage,because I don't I mean we could probably continue going on that trapfor a long time, but HEU'v provided such clarity and a nice call to actionto both marketing rebellion and cumulative advantage were insanely wellresearched. I can tell that you just got this kind of passion or bug or Itchor whatever you. However, you think of it. News to pursue these ideas reallydeeply to motive advantage was fun to read. It was in a very personal voiceto by the way I felt it times like. I was just hanging out with you and it'sgot tons of stories and examples. I guess to get going on. It share themain principle whether or not you fold in the matthew effect is optional, butyou know what is the? What is the main idea of this cuelative advantage thatcan be used to build momentum for our ideas, our businesses and for our lives?I love that element to this idea that sometimes I was thinking about myself,and sometimes I was thinking about the team in the company. I work with in thecustomers we serve yeah. Well, when I write a book I have tosolve a problem. I have to solve a big big problem that I'm curious about, andI get obsessed with it and the problem I was solving with this book. Is thattoday, being great is not enough, it soundsweird, but the number one role. I think that allof us are striving to figure out in our lives and our businesses. Certainly inmarketing, is we're trying to answer one question: How can we be heard? Howcan we be seen and discovered in this world of overwhelming informationdensity and the competition is increasing a this insane number? Youknow. I use this example. Where look. If you were someone early on Youtube,you could post pictures of cats doing stupid things and you could go vira andget a lot of money from advertising. Last year, the number one person onyoutube was a guy named Jimmy Nicholson. He goes by Mr Beast: He's made tens ofmillions of dollars on Youtube. He spends on average three hundredthousand dollars to produce one video he spent as muchas a million dollars to produce one video. Now that's what it takes to beat the top, and so these communication...

...channels, these content channels, arefilling up with his amazing content. How do we stand out, and this is what Ibecame obsessed with if we're doing our best work, if we're great and followingall the rules of content and social media, an SEO? How do we get to thatnext level? And so I went down this rabbit hole of momentum, and I took meback io Thousan Ninetenden d, Sixty eight, where some of the earlysociological research began and without getting into all of the ideas principalof cumulative advantage is a well well researched, documented, evenmathematically algorithmic. If that's now a verb or an adjective, it showsthat if you have some small advantage in your life, if you play your cardsright, you can build momentum and so that your advantage will increase overtime in an unstoppable way over your competition. Now the simple example,the simple explanation that that the sociologists use when teaching aboutthis as a bank account if someone starts with a thousand dollars in thebank and another person is tenthousand dollars in the bank. The difference isnine thousand dollars, but if they both get a five percent interest rate, allthings being equal in ten years, that difference will be almost fifteenthousand dollars. They both have a bank account they're,both getting interest, but that initial advantage creates this gap. Thismomentum, now it doesn't just have to be money, it can be experience, itcould be education, it could be. You know, someone that you meet. It couldbe an idea. HOW DID BILL GATES GET TO BE BILL GATES? His initial advantagewas that when he was a teenager, he was the only team, probably in the countrythat had access to early computer prototypes. He was coating beforeanybody else. That was his initial advantage. He madegood decisions, he worked hard, he played his cars right and that momentumbecame unstoppable, and so what I discovered is that there's a pattern tothis, that there are certain things that happen that create and propelmomentum. And now, if we could become aware, what are those things? How dothose things happen over and over again for some people and not others, then wecan start to think about our lives and our ideas and our businesses in adifferent way and maybe make choices that create momentum for ourselves,love it and the matthew effect is rich, get richer, porget poor. This idea thatthe momentum builds, which was key in the beginning and for folks who erelistening, who have not yet read it: a recommended B, the premise that thatrun this this thread that runs through the whole thing is: Why is Tim Ferrisnow opra and Mark Shaefer doesn't, and it's you know? Certainly U you'vebuilt advantages for yourself and I love your resolve, which we will notgive away as to why you don't personally know opra and Timferris doesso there's a five part framework. It's the initial advantage, the seame thesonic boom reaching up and constancy. Let's spend a minute in the seeme, I'mjust going to define it in your own words, but because I think we can talkbusiness and we can talk customer experience really in all of these andagain there are many good stories and examples throughout, but the sceme wasespecially interesting to me and I found myself reflecting on it quite abit. New seemes are opening always and endlessly an undefended opportunity cancome from changing customer needs, exploiting customer competitor,laziness, specialize data analysis or the application of new technology. Soit's really this. This is...

...identifying the advantage anddetermining how? How big is this seem? How long might it persist? Howdefensible is it etcetera, talk a little bit about the scene yeah. Well,when I was growing up in business strategy, was we literally did five ear plants, fifty page documents five year plansand oh my gosh yeah. I had to do these things on paper in the early days and but today, with the speed of cultureand the speed of business that these little fractures these little. Thesethese changes- these shifts they're happening all the time now, on a macrolevel, what's the biggest fracture in the status quote, we've seen ever thepandemic. It's affected every single person in every single way, and Ipredicted last March now last March, everything is shutting down andeverybody's in crisis, and I said there will be more business startups in thenext six months, an any time in American history, and that came true.It's been a sad time, a tragic time with the number of businesses that havefailed, but we've had more startups than failures. Why? Because there's afracture in everything how people learn how people work, how people eat howpeople work out running in place in your apartment? Right I had a longconversation with. I think the Fellos title is the head ofGlobal Brand Narrative Edidetis, he told me the pandemic read defined sport, that's no smallthing! The pandemic has redefined almost everything and every one ofthose little fractures is a business opportunity. And how do we apply ourideas? Our initial advantage, our court competencies to solve those problems?That's a sceme and you don't wait till next year. You go now as fast as youcan as hard as you can you burst through that scene with all your powerand all your energy and see what you've got and you just might have a bigbusiness. Yes, so good I mean this. This changing customer needs as the keyone and, of course the pandemic is a very dramatic version of that, but evena decade ago, these people's needs change all the time and that just needs,but even the priority of those needs I mean we all have needs and wants.Sometimes I can't satisfy them, and so we shift TA priority in them and Ithink this constant being constantly in touch with customers and customerfeedback. What's going on in the market, what frontline employees are seeing andhearing and observing could probably help us identify seemes that areperhaps closing on us or new ones that are opening it. I think it's. You alsohave six amazing questions. I won't restate them all now, but for folks whoare listening, there are six key questions to ask yourself related tothe scene that I think you'll find very provocative and could probably be askedby any leadership team, at least quarterly, just to make sure thatyou're not missing opportunities or missing them. You know not becoming oneof those competitors. Who's lazy that could be exploited, resulted to a scemeone more question related to it. Another quote from the chapter onuncertainty swing to early or too late, and you risk missing the scene. So hereyou just suggested when you identify it and confirm it run at it witheverything you have just want to give you a quick story about my experiencehere at Bombam with our team at just get your thoughts on it, so our companywas legally founded in two thousand and six before the iphone even existed, andthe original founders vision is alive and well today, which is using videomessages in place of what would otherwise be plain, typed out text tobe more clear, to be more personal, to... more human. To have people feel likethey know you it to put things in late persons terms Etceta for all thesebenefits. What if I coul get faced to face with more people? More often inthe communication channels, we use all the time using video, so that was twothousand and six boots TRAPP company I joined in twenty eleven couple hundredcustomers that were over sixtyzen customers little to no competition backthen, in whatever existed back in two thousand and eleven a lot of them don'texist. Today, however, we have a lot more competitors. We is some of it isthat some of those companies are sitting on tens of millions of dollars,AF venture capital from some of the most prestigious VC firms on the planet.I feel like we were swinging early. Our Two cofinders were swinging early on it,but it's also been this slow patient, steady growth, which is another thing.I've read and heard from you and your own work is you know this consistency?We just stayed at it. We listen to our customers, we continue to innovate, andnow here we are and what seems like a big scene for a lot of companies likeif, if, if big VC firms are dumping, tens of millions of dollars into thisspace, there's obviously some seem identified. What do you think aboutanything? I just shared there, no you're exactly right and, as you weretalking, I was thinking about my experiences. Where there's a story, Itold in the book I used to work in the packaging business and if you look atall the research that a glass bottle with a court is the worst way to storewine, and I was trying to sell aluminum cans into the wine business. Of courseeverybody turned up their nose and right now in this moment, which isprobablyfifteen years after I was trying to push this idea, the hottestgrowing segment of wine is wine in cans. It's not because I was wrong. It's notbecause the research was was incorrect is because something shifted- and here is whatshifted today's generation of young people they are. They want to be on thego. They want to have a picnic wherever they don't want, a heavy wine bottle tothrow in a backpack, and then you got to have an opener. They want a can,they want a can, throw it in there. It's good for the environment. Youvpopped the thing open it chills really quickly. Those are all things we knewfifteen years ago, but the world wasn't ready the seam opened now, and so Iwould have been a hero if I had the idea right now, so thatyou know I was I swung too early, and it wasn't a mistake because you takeyour best shot, but certainly the logic was there: the product was there, butthe market wasn't the people weren't tere yeah, it's been really interesting,and even still migration into am some of that's cultural. Some of it is noone has pioneered it. Therefore, it's not safe it, maybe for anyone to gofirst to see how viable the ideas theres so much there as been its that'sbeen. What's so interesting about our own position, is the concept is strongand for people who adopt it? It's I hear I've heard it. Many many timesihave personal relationships with hundreds of our customers, and I hearit all the time like this didn't just change. My businesses change my lifelike once you make this a habit, it's life changing, but it's it still feelsvery early in this space that we've been in for a dozen years, but it'll bemoving quickly. Just like yes, I absolutely see boxed wine and cannedwine in my neighborhood door, yeah Seah a couple quotes for you to react to youguess we do this, maybe is a speedround from cumulative advantage. I love thisone. How do we take the time even schedule, the time to explore thingsthat are not directly related to your immediate goals? Well, that's a problemright now, certainly in the pandemic, and when I was talking about there was the importanceof Seren, dipity and randomness. That's... momentum starts and if we're justlocked in our offices like I am right now on zoom calls all day. We don'texperience that randomness and so a challenge I think, to for energy, fornew ideas for creativity is we've got two fine ways to connect with newpeople. From a psychological perspective, it's almost impossible toreally think out of your box, your box, your mental framework, was more or lesscompleted by the time. You're. Fifteen years old breakthrough thinking comesfrom combining boxes, mashing up with other people in Weird ways that createnew ideas. A new moment. Absolutely I've experienced that so much and myown like when I listen to podcass or I read books or I read blogs. You knowthe idea doesn't have anynecessarily any practical application for meimmediately in the moment, but you know a few months later and at work. Thatwas always the hallway conversation where you're talking to like I'm. Neverin a meeting with this person we're in completely different teams, we don'twork on anything directly. We never have, but when I run into them you knowI learned something new or interesting. That changes the way I think and soyeah I'm changing my box and I Miss Saran dipity. Okay, when you commit toa goal that far exceeds your current capability, you'll need a newenvironment that organically supports your goal, a context that forces you tobecome more than you currently are yeah. I mean I think I've experienced that somuch in my life and probably the most profound lesson, one of the best bestbusiness lessons I ever had really was. I used to work for a company that madealuminum. You never see those truck commercials where there's like Moutin metal and pouring and there'slike sparks going all over the place. That's where I work. That's the company,it's very hazardous environmentpotentially, there's bigequipment and heat and molten things and people got hurt and we had a newchairman come to our company and he said we are going to eliminate injuriesin our company and people thought what you know your. What are yousmoking dude and he said no we're going to do it, so he had to create a wholenew environment, a whole new mindset he had to bring in New People and thepeople who wouldn't accept that mindset. He got rid of them and all of a suddenslike Oh, my gosh, and it started to work and by the time he was, he left a CEO. Our injury statistics atthis metal company were lower than ib M, which is a white collar workforce rightworking in one of our plants was safer than working in an IBM office. Now, ifyou want big big results, you got to surround yourself with the people andthe resources to help you get those big results, yeah, and I think once you make thatcommitment as it sounds like the leader did in that plant or that giant companythat probabl multiple its that commitment itself is attractive. Ithink people are fundamentally attracted to bold, clear visions, yeahand so not only do you have to to get it going, but I think at a certainpoint, it probably starts to beget itself once the groundwork is laid thatit becomes attractive to people. Maybe last one in this past, and I love theway you devoted so much of the end of the book to this idea, which I'm onlygoing to capture with one quote. We had multiple pages on the spirit behind it.Don't just lend a hand, be the hand and help those in this world who are beingleft behind. Well elthat's, a big one eving. It is that's why I saved it yeahwell. So writing a book for me is like...

...getting a master's degree. You read andResearch and write for two years and it can't help but change you. It'san immersive, profound experience and one of the things that haunted me as I was writing thisbook. Is this idea that all of us are riding the crest of awave that started a long time ago. Some of US are riding Bill Gates, waves,they're, huge in their towering and their overpowering, and some of us areriding blue collar waves. We can create momentum, but it we might have to worka little harder. I come from a blue collar family from the you know fromfrom Pittsburgh, and some of us aren't riding awave at all, we're being pooledunder by the undertowe. And what haunted me about this book is thatthat this book was it really for everybody, and the answer is no, it's not in fact.Every book like this inherently is elitist. It assumes you have the moneyto buy the book. It assumes you have the time to read the book. It assumesyou have the resources to surround yourself to make these goals right andthere's a large part of our society. That's just being poolled under theirone broken car away from crisis, their one, unexpected medical bill away fromcrisis, let alone build momentum, but we know now because of this boot. Webecause of this work that momentum starts with a spark, an idea: encouragement, tonot just lend a hand but get down andreally pull someone up into that new level of momentum, and that isaccessible. That is duable by any person by any person and when we dothat it sends a ripple through history through history, and we can all do thatand that's how I sort of t e called it called action at the end of the book, absolutely beautiful again with thesixty second back button. On that one and absolutely right, I mean there's somany people who are being dehumanized every day by system or by circumstance.Very often it is not elective. I think it's easy for people to like pointfingers and say in point blame and you know, put people in their places whenin fact there is victim hood. It can be overcome. But I,but to your point, this idea of giving the gift of your time and attention toother people a allows them to feel seen and heard, and appreciatid and valued,which is all any human being needs and wants in a deep fundamental way. But italso it's so interesting to hear people and to think about my own experiences.You know just a single conversation can change the way someone thinks or looksat the entire world, and then you know just a serious change in perspective.It doesn't necessarily have to be this. You know forty hour. Commitment on oneperson's party could simplebe just at that moment that infight, that gift oftime and attention as much as little as that might be yeah. That's right! It'snot that hard to seek it out either in our interconnected world on the web.You can sense when people are in trouble. You can see when people aresuffering in some way and that's one of the things I try to do. When I seesomeone something happened and I'll just call him up and I'll say you know:Do you need you know? What can I do do you need somebody to talk to and eventhat can help send things. The other direction really good for folks who are listening,always share other episodes that you might enjoy, and in this case I'm goingto choose three people who were all included in the cumulative advantage.So, on episode, five of this podcast...

...and Handley, we called that episode theHoly Grail of connecting with your customers by the way that's email,episodes, fourteen and sixty seven. She is one of just a few two time guestshere on the podcast Samantha Stone episode, Fourteen we called AI andhuman relationships and episode. Sixty seven was right at the onside of thepandemic, and it was about crisis communication and there's strong themesof empathy and just really making sure people felt heard and appreciatet inthat moment for who they are not just what they are to you or your companyand then episode sixty with Matt Sweezy, the context marketing revolution, justtitled that just like his book and in fact he was the one who referred me tomarketing rebellion and those two books, context, Marketing Revolution andmarketing. Rebellion not only share this revolution rebellion concept, butthey have a lot in common and spirit, and I recommend both reads so before Ilet you go mark first. Thank you so much for your time. I could have easilydone this for twice as long but again you're busy busy man and I want to letyou get back to your work because I enjoy consuming it myself, but before Ilet you go when I ask you to think or mention a person. Who's had a positiveimpact on your life for your career and give a shout out or a nod to accompanyyour a brand that you really appreciate for the experience that they deliverfor you as a customer. Well, those three people you mentioned all would bein that category. They're awesome, awesome people and they've been greatpersonal friends to me over the years. I would also add someone who had an extremely importantimpact on this book: A Felo name Keith Reynold Jennings. He is absolutely oneof the most brilliant men that I know a real visionary when it comes tomarketing, especially purpose driven marketing, and he helped a lot in thisbook. You know I started writing this in two thousand and nineteen before thepandemic, and then the whole world seemed to explode, and I had three orfour chapters written and I sent them to Keith in the spring of two thousandand twenty- and I said, is this still a book and he wrote me an email back andhe said why e s and all capital letters he said. Not only is this a great book,he said this is your legacy. This is your greatest book, and so that gave methe courage and the validation to just keep on going. So Keith meant a lot tome and his helped with this book awesome and how about a brand or acompany that comes to mind. Well, you know I love so many brands right now. Ithink a company that is just consistently excellent in everythingthey do with marketing is northface and I've kind of like gone up against Northface in some of my projects, and I know how good they are another copy. Ireally love right now. Smaller company is Glassie, it's a company featured inthe marketing rebellion book and it just follows almost every principle of how to be themost human company in your space and they are killing it that they deserveall their success, because they're doing marketing in a new way in avisionary way led by their founder Emily Wiss. That's awesome. I love allthree of the things you mentioned there. I love the support that you got on thebook when everything was maybe up for crabs. I, like both companies that youmentioned and Glassier, is one of only a handful of companies. That's beenmentioned twice. You can imagine the world of possibility when I ask everguess that question, but my breadboard, formerly of hub spot and currently ofsassworks also mention them a low for similar reasons to makes me want to goback and I need to tally these all up and organize them anyway. I appreciatethat so much. I know if someone is listening right now that they enjoyedthe conversation, they may or may not be familiar with you, but they're,certainly here with us now. So how could someone follow up on this whe'reGOINGTON conect with you, the books,...'ve written your blog, your podcast,you're speaking, anything else you want to share. Where would you like to sendpeople yeah? It's really easy to find me at businesses GROWCOM, my blog. Isthere my podcast lots of fun resources and you can find a list of all my books,descriptions and and also there's a lot of free goodies, and I don't even askfor an email address. If you go to cumunutive advantage, pager you go toMarkin rebellion page, I'm giving away all kinds of workbooks and videos andextra content, so there's lots of valuable goodies there for every one ofmy books. Awesome. I appreciate what you are sharing with all of us. Iappreciate the depth to which you go to get at these ideas and really pursuepursue them till you get to a point of satisfaction. Your level ofsatisfaction is obviously a high bar, and I really appreciate and respectyour work and your time here. Continued success to you have an awesomeafternoon. Thank you even and thanks for being so well prepared- and thiswas an excellent interview. Thank you, clear communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance,so pick up the official book, Rehumonize Your Business, how personalvideos, accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in ordertoday at Bombamcom book, that's Bo, mb, bombcom fuck, thanks for listening tothe customer experience. PODCAST remember. The single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers, continue. Learning the latest strategies and tactics bysubscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombomcompodcast.

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