The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 10 months ago

189. Human Connection at the Heart of Sales w/ Dr. Cindy McGovern


Listening is the secret to selling anything — but most of us don’t listen the right way, even though all of us are in sales roles (yes, all of us). 

True listening is looking at the 360° view of what’s happening. 

In this episode, I speak with Dr. Cindy McGovern , CEO at Orange Leaf Consulting and author of Every Job Is a Sales Job , about using listening and presence to design a customer experience that customers want to tell others about. 

Dr. Cindy and I talked about:

- How to turn non-salespeople into salespeople

- What it means to realize that selling means helping

- Why you should be proactive about creating moments that matter

- What Dr. Cindy’s 5-step sales process is

- How to use video to create meaningful sales connection 

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Dr Cindy McGovern on LinkedIn 

- Every Job Is A Sales Job 

- Orange Leaf Consulting 

- United Airlines 

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts , Spotify , Google Play , or Google Podcasts , and find more episodes on our

They're selling them the fact that you actually are seeing them as a human being. There is a human connection in this business relationship. I want you to be able to trust me versus. This is one thing that was on my to do list today. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. You are in sales. It may or may not be in your job title, it may or may not be in your linkedin profile, but you are in sales. That's because every job as a sales job. That's the theme of today's conversation and that's the title of our Guests Wall Street Journal best selling book. Every job is a sales job. How to use the art of selling to win at work. In it, she outlines a process to help you sell more naturally, more confidently, more effectively and more often, all while avoiding the ICK factor and selling all in a way that relies on more gratitude and better listening. Our guest is a speaker, a consultant and the first lady of sales. She's earned multiple advanced degrees in communication and helps all kinds of businesses and individuals with sales strategy, personal development and leadership. Dr Sending, mcgovernor, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Ethan. It is a pleasure and I'm a huge fan. I am a huge fan of yours. It's been so fun to get to know you over the past few months. This podcast conversation is overdue for reasons that listeners, you know, would be bored by. Probably. I'm just really glad we're here and I'm going to start where we always start, Dr Cindy, which is customer experience. When I say that, what does it mean to you? So the customer experience is something I talked about a lot with our clients because I don't love the words customer service. You know services, that expectation. It's the thing that you know you drive through and they're supposed to give you food at the drive through, and so by saying we give good service, it is meeting that. But the customer experience is about creating a path that the customer goes through that gives them those wow moments that they want to go talk about. If I've had an experience, I have a story to tell, and so that's the way that I look at customer experience. Is something that I go through where I have an emotional response that gives me a story to tell people later. I really like your emphasis on it being remarkable and worth talking about. And then, of course, we share things through story and that can be in positive word of mouth, it can be an online reviews, it can be in testimonials that they allow you to publish on your site. Like Ah, so many different benefits. I really like that. I'm gonna give you a line from every job, as a sales job, and then we'll talk about it related to though. Like it is, I'm not going to ask you what paide you was out of copyd six. Okay, moments that matter should be good experiences for the person who encounters you as a representative of your employer. So there it is with the it needs to be a good experience. It's a moment that matters and you are a representative of your employer. Break down any piece of that that you want or share your any perspective you'd like to. Yeah, so we teach a lot, you know, the consulting firm that I run. We teach a lot about moments that matter for customers and what that actually is, and it's knowing your customer and knowing what their expectation is so that you can exceed it. But within this moments that matter, the other pieces remembering that you, as an employee, you're selling your brand all day every day, and you are a reflection of the company that you work for and they that organization, and so you're the one that's empowered to create that moment that matters and as little as it may be, it's like that butterfly of effect. Impact can be huge just by you remembering the person's name, just by you genuinely asking how they're doing. I was actually talking to client earlier today and we were discussing the greetings that we have in emails, if we even have them these days, where it's hope you're well and that's it, and and it's so impersonal, even though we're trying to be personal. That's not a wow moment. A wow moment would be something more specific around hey, Ethan how's the book going? So excited to hear more about it, by the way. And then you go into the body of the message and when you're sending a video, it's the same thing. It's giving that little bit extra attention to something that creates that emotional spot response within them. I'm sure you run into this, because I do all the time because, like you, I'm advocating for more bespoke, truly personal moments to help make them matter. Some moments matter automatically, like big decision points and other things, and you need to manage those gracefully. But...

...we can also create moments that matter out of what would otherwise be, I guess, to keep with the alliteration, mundane moments, and you just offered one right, if you just said hope, all as well, someone's going to drive by and get to like, okay, what's actually going on here? But you can create this moment that matters. The pushback that I typically hear around this, and I'm curious if you do too, and maybe how you think about it, is that's unscalable, I can't do that. Like what do you think about that? I think it's a terrible excuse. So you know, and I understand why they think that, and we run into this with our clients and we get that pushback of well, I just don't have time to do that. You have the time to type the one sentence that's super generic. Why not give it two seconds more? And what people don't realize is, especially if you're in in a sales role, which I would argue every job is, you are cutting back on your inbound phone calls and emails and request from these people because you're creating trust and that's what you're actually selling, is you're selling them the fact that you actually are seeing them as a human being. There is a human connection in this business relationship. I want you to be able to trust me versus. This is one thing that was on my to do list today. How are you doing? Hope all as well, give me my stuff that I need from you. Yeah, let's double back into the end, into the you know, each of us is a representative of our brand. Implied in that or a company. Each one of us is delivering an experience on behalf of the company at every one of these moments. Obviously, implied in that is something that we talk a lot about on the show, which is that it's impossible to the deliverer remarkable customer experience without having a remarkable employee experience. And in that line that I read and even in what you've already shared here, it's obvious why if the representative of the company doesn't care about the company and doesn't feel like they're being treated well by the company, it's going to be difficult for them to treat the customer in a way that makes them feel cared about. And you gave an example in the book from Your own personal background of working at a really high end grocery store, and I love that story because it is certainly one way to enhance employee engagement as well as customer experience, or to enhance customer experience through employee engagement. And you'll probably add a lot better detail to it. I know you will, because you lived it and wrote about it. I just read about it. It was modeled from the top that the owner and manager of the store. It was just like drop everything, I don't care where the person is, I don't care what question there is, what their question is, I don't care what department you're happened to be standing in or walking through at the time. Any customer problem is something that you solve on the spot and it's modeled from the top down. Talk about the power of a modeling and be perhaps other ways that you've seen be effective to really get those team members at all levels of the organization to say these are my moments and I am a proud representative of this company in this moment. Well, it's funny because, you know, I was in college and it was a summer job working in that high end grocery store, but it surprised even me as a college student that the owner literally, you know, I'd be in the middle of making some kind of a dip or something and I was about to pull off my gloves to go to the register and she's like, I got it, and then she would jump right into register mode, or same thing if I was, you know, carrying such like don't worry about I got it. It was so ingrained and just what that organization was that it made you actually want to do that. It like it was inspiring because you saw the reaction that she got from the customer and it was so empowering that she was like, Nope, customers are first, this is what we're going to do. I got you. You got my back. It's totally fine, and I think we forget that that the way that we treat our people really does impact the way that they you know, it's a trickle down effect and we talk a lot about employees first, and it's funny because I wrote a blog on this billion years ago and I got a little flak for it because they're like, wait, mean you're the sales gal. Shouldn't be talking about customer first, and I said yes, but that's actually how you put the customer first is you put your people first and then they want to show the love that they have, they show the pride that they have. It's like take it completely out of business and you put it in you know, you just painted your house or you just got a new car and how excited you are to show it off. People should be that excited about talking about their job and talking about their organization and if they're not, we look at the leadership. You go straight to the top. Why isn't that enthusiasm and passion trickling down? Yeah, absolutely, in the way you to find that, obviously we're talking about culture at some level, which a simple definition of it, and one that I like, is something like how we do it around here, and so this idea of, you know, how we're modeling this is like, this is what's expected in this is normal and and to your point, I just can, just can imagine how it's immediately infectious that like I've been helped and I have the opportunity to help another team...

...member, I'm going to like. It's just it's just this. It's a positive spiral up or a positive spiral down. It is and it's funny, even at the grocery store, you know, I was there for three months, you know, but I was immediately part of the family. Everybody had my back, I had their back. There was a family tragedy actually during the time that I work there. My father passed away, but when he went in the hospital they sent traits to the hospital. There my boss was calling checking. It was just amazing this amount of love. And that's the other thing. Most of the employees there had been there for ages. You know, it was this long term. It was a career, not just a job, and I felt really fortunate to have, you know, just that little window of it because I learned so much from that moment and I learned how to treat people. I learned management skills, leadership skills, communication skills, customer facing skills. It was quite an indication in three months. Yeah, I mean, I mean obviously a powerful experience if you're writing about it years later, experience when you're a teenager. Yeah, so good. Let's let's move into this kind of sales mentality and let's speak specifically to the non sales people who are listening. You know, what are the common hang ups? You know, like I was turned onto your idea. I guess what, the first time I really encountered it was in something like Dan pinks to sell as human and it hadn't occurred to me. I am one of those people and I hear I'll share another thing just because kind of a tea up. So I've been involved with the hub spot. Has really good about building communities in different different city. So I over the years I've been to a lot of the hub spot like local hub spot group meetings and and have the privilege of speaking in a couple of them too, and so many of them are I'm a marketer. I Love Marketing, I love content marketing, I love hub spot, I love the platform. I'm really good at delivering the service and I'm good at selling all the benefits of it, but I hate prospecting, I hate following up with Nuhan Line leads, I hate picking up the phone, like all of these things, and it's like there's so close, you know, and then other people who are listening are like yeah, I'm not a salesperson period. Just speak to that. Like why is it so difficult? What are some of the common objections? What are some of the self limiting beliefs? What are a couple ways that you've unlocked a healthy sales mentality for the non salesperson who is either tried it and said this ain't for me or is just resistant even to the idea? Well, I mean I have to start by saying I was one of them. I literally railed against it. It was funny. Right when the book came out I was on a radio interview and they said how did you get into sales and I said, honestly, kicking and screaming because I didn't want it, because I had this mentality that sales with this pushy, manipulative, kind of, you know, transactional thing, and I'm like, I'm nice, I like to build relationships. I just want to help people. And so, you know, because of that it that's what led me to write the book, that's what let me do the work that I do now. Is because I went, wait a minute, I've been selling my whole life. I just didn't call it sales. Why did anybody tell me this? So I wanted to help others. But for those that would kind of rail against it from that Ich factor, I don't blame them and any of the listeners today, I want you to rail again. It's that as well. I don't want you to sell that way. That's never my intention, because nobody likes to be sold, but everybody likes to buy. And so my version of selling is that we're just helping people. Were inviting them to have whatever solution we're offering, and sometimes that solution is just us. It's my help, but it's truly changing the mentality around that. And then those who are sort of like you said, I'd call them sales adjacent. You know, they're doing all the things, but they're like, oh, hey, prospecting, I hate this, I hate that. Think about what your passion area is in that it's still helping people. So how do you help more people? You find more people to help. That's called prospecting. It's just taking it one step further, and it really does. You know, passion begets passion, but it's getting over that mental block of Oh, but I don't want to do that kind of prospecting. I don't want you to either. I just want you to genuinely go out in the universe, find people that need your help and offer it to them. I love it, and doing such a way that they want to introduce you to other people as well. Yeah, and just to just to take another line that I really appreciate it from the book that's in this zone, and this is again for people that are like am I salesperson? The answer, of course, is yes, and here's a quote that will help open that up. Every transaction that could result in a yes or a no will require you to sell something yourself, your idea, a concept, your worthiness, your Valu all you, your competence,...

...your company, and some of the ways that I teach it. I course, I'm doing this in a video messaging context, but it's you know, I talked about the micro yeses in the macro yeses. I think when we talk about selling, so many people think about that macro yes of or the macro conversion of sign contract or sign proposal, and it requires you to kind of shoehorn or shove or steer or push people into something, you know, but the pain in their hand and you know I help them sign the thing. But in fact, you know, selling really is all of the micro yeses. Yes, I'll introduce you to that person. Yes, I'll fill out that survey. Yes, I'll attend this meeting that you want me to show up at. You know, yes, I'll send you a reply, all of these little yeses, all like we're selling all day. Like maybe give me a story of like an organization that you've gone into where there may be a team of like nonsale sales people. Know what are a couple like moments in the day where you're like no, actually, what you're doing is selling. I mean, I think I already kind of walked through a couple of them, but do you have any more that you like? Yeah, so that's literally kind of why I exist as a consultant as because we turn non sales people into sales people. Right. But it's funny because we have worked with a number of different organizations, but there's one that kind of popped in my head when you're just asking that. There was a title Insurance Company and they didn't have any dedicated sales people. So nobody's business card said business development, sales, even marketing. It was very much around the owner of the organization that had sort of started it, but everybody that was touching the file for the client, everyone that was interacting, the person answering the phone and doing air traffic control, all of those people were selling and my job was to convince them that they were. So we went in and we, you know, did our assessment, we did all the things we do in consulting. But it was funny because we started with what you had said a minute ago. We started with a wow moments and we said, well, let's put ourselves in the customer shoes and think about what would make you want to talk about your experience here. And we said, well, you know, when you walk in, somebody would offers you a cup of coffee. Okay, great, now what? Okay, let's back it up. Before they even get here. That first interaction is an email. Okay, how do we make that better? You know, how is that more exciting? How could we send a video message? How can we change the content of the message. How do we make every single interaction that micro yes, but also creating a story. Every single touch point is an opportunity to wow them, make a moment that matters and give them a story to tell about it. And if we think about it, even as consumers, it's not like we go to the grocery store and somebody does this magical thing to help us carry our grocery store our car or something. It's usually the fact that the person, instead of says Oh, it's on all seven, they walk you there. It's a mini moment that matters, but think about that impact and that's a lot of what we end up doing. So when we were working with this organization, we had to empower them to want to do these things. And what's funny is when you start putting it in the context of you being the consumer, seeing how that feels, how it feels to be helped, how it feels to be valued, then they're like, well, why are we doing this already? And then they feel empowered to do it and then of course that energy just be gets energy and it was really fun. They actually grew their business quite a bit. I don't know the statistics, in my head, but it was over twenty percent just because they were being proactive versus reactive about their moments the matter. I love it. It really is CX design. I love that you added that positive upward spiral where good be gets good be gets better. And just before we move on to kind of the framework that you put around it, at least briefly, and then I want to talk about video and what role that plays in creating more moments that matter, really putting yourself forth as a trusted helper, because you really see it as helping, not selling. Just a reminder to people like the pipe. We talked about the if factor, which is all the reasons people like I don't want to do that, because we've all been sold very poorly before, as opposed to being empowered to buy. A few keywords that you use throughout the book are clarity, listening, mutual benefit, gratitude and align in particular, from page ninety four, listening is the secret to selling anything. Talk about any of those words, but definitely go in on listening. Why is listening the secret to selling anything? So I think we hear people but we don't actually listen, and so I make a big distinction of that in the book and even just in our coaching and consulting, because we hear them, but we're hearing them because we want to respond, versus actually listening. And in order to listen you actually have to ask really good questions. So it's a two way street. It's active listening and truly, if you are listening to what someone needs, you're going to hear what they say and what they don't say, and that's usually where the truth lies. And we...

...know this in our lives, right, like you know this in your family or in your relationships. But in a business context we don't always see it that way because we move at the speed of business. We're onto the next thing, on to the next thing. But if you can truly listen, that's your chance to sell yourself, to sell your product, to sell your service, to sell whatever it is, because you can hear the need and you're never going to hear the need unless you're looking for it, and the only way that you're going to see it and hear it is to listen. And it's funny with the listening piece too, because so often, I think we think we're good listeners, right. It's like, well, I heard what you said, but are you really looking at it in the context of what that person's trying to accomplish, what they want to do, what their need is? Like the customer who calls in and says, Oh, I'm waiting for this. Is it that they're waiting for that, or is the fact that they don't have it preventing something else? We have to see sort of the context of it, and that's really what true listening is, is looking at the three hundred and sixty view of what's happening. So good it makes me, reminds me how important it is to be present in the moment, and I think that's one of the reasons we lie to ourselves about how good a listener we might be. I know that it is. I am at the point now where the the way that things around me happen, in the way that I interact with devices and some of these things that have become normal to me. I know that it's a conscious act still from time to time to reset and be present, and it's something that I've been mindful of for a while. But this this ability to be present and then, of course, some layered in there is just something the natural curiosity. Why is that? Or why? You know, I what I didn't hear you say is just to take your own words there. You know what I didn't hear you say is this. Is there a particular reason why we kind of glossed over that or skipped over that, or is that not an issue? I tend to often hear that, but I didn't hear that, like the all these things. So there's a curiosity, layer two and then of course the humility not to proceed on assumption and really to for your own benefit and out of respect for the other person, to get to some degree of clarity. And all of that requires this presence. But I feel like presence culturally is difficult or something and maybe not even normal anymore. It's sadly, I think you're right, because we multitask in all aspects of our lives, even if it's just mental. And it's funny because even when you're on the phone with somebody, you can hear them typing or you hear them shuffling papers, or you know, which is kind of the magic of video now, is when we're live with someone, we can see are you actually there? Are you paying attention? You know so, but I think you know when you are saying that I choose a word every year and it's my word of focus and it's something I started many years ago with a Gal Pal of mine and we're like we should choose a word that will be our, you know, our thing for the year, and so this year's word is actually now, and when you're talking about presents it partially because of that. It's like it's so easy to be distracted these days and you're never going to sell anybody anything, including yourself, if you're not being fully present. And you've got to focus on now and what's going on right here and all the sensations and we gloss over them right. It's we sort of buzz through life these days and think about even when you're standing in line, you know, at a store or something, you're on your phone versus looking around. But the phone down, be present, be in the now, and that also creates what you said, which is one of my favorite words, curiosity, and the old adage for sales is always be closing all ABC, but I actually say ABC, always be curious, because if you truly are curious and genuinely curious, you will want to seek more information, you will listen and then you will be able to help. Yeah, really, really good. And me just the now piece. May You know, it reminds me what another way to think about presence, which is, you know, when we are distracted, we're thinking about what's coming up or what's next or what might happen, or we're worried about what happened or what they said or how they said it, or so you know, we're and that is the we're in the future, we're in the past very often and or we're just absolutely distract and we're kind of nowhere. You just it's real. Naturally, I'm just straight, you know, you know, doing dumb stuff. I'm scrolling, mindlessly scrolling, for example, I wanted to get in here, although I'm always over ambitious and what we can do in the amount of time in these conversations, but I want to do at least for the sake of listeners, to provoke their curiosity and give them a little bit more on the structure that you provide. I'm sure you provide this in your training and your coaching, in addition to in the book, but you know the five step process for seeing your sot job... a sales job, planning looking for opportunities, establishing trust, asking for what you want, which was a bit something I never did myself permission to do for decades, and then following up, and so planning, looking for opportunities, establishing trust, asking for what you want and then following up. Just do a quick drive by on that, like how did you arrive at the structure and or what are some what have you heard feet, because I'm sure you've gotten a lot of feedback for people you're engaging with directly or people who are reading talk about the structure, how it came to be and maybe why it is sequenced that way or anything you want to highlight about it. Yeah, so it's my sales process in a very succinct manner. Right. It's my sales process that I use. It just in five steps and I wanted to give readers something that was easy to follow, because I think some sales processes, and anybody that's read a sales book or any you know consultated sales or anything like that, there can be ninety steps and it's really the fact that you're selling every single day and every single situation and you're actually, or at least should be, hitting these five steps. So the first one is planning. You know what was your plan when you stepped in here? Are you got on the phone or you walked into that meeting? And then what's the opportunity that you're looking for, you're listening for right to be able to get you closer to reaching whatever the goal is that you want for that plan, and then establishing trust with those around you that this is going to be a two way win. And I think that's the other thing where we have this ick factor of sales is it feels very one sided. We were like, you're taking, yes, yes, and that's not it. Everybody's giving, everybody's taking, everybody's winning in the way that I teach sales at but trust has to happen, and this is where even season sales people that it does say sales on your business card kind of mix this one up because they confuse rapport with trust. I can like you and still not trust you. So they have to kind of think about that of how do you actually establish trust in that interaction, whether it's a five minute interaction or a five year relationship, you're constantly bartering for more trust. So that's the the the third piece is really truly establishing that trust. And then it's funny that you said that you had a hard time giving yourself permission to ask for what you want, and I talk about that and that's something that I coach seasoned executives, on business owners on because we've sort of been trained in this. You know, society that Oh, will you know? Should you really get that? Do you really deserve it? The answers yes, yes, you do, but we tell ourselves a story around it, and so there is a permissiveness of allowing yourself to recognize, okay, I do deserve this, I can achieve this, and then finding your words to ask, and that's the piece really were in the book and so much of the coaching that we do is helping you to figure out how to ask, because we're not great at it as human beings most of the time. And so, you know, I would encourage folks that are listening try with small stuff. You know, if you want French fries instead of salad, ask for it. Okay, try it in something that doesn't have this giant impact on on your livelihood later. But if you want that raise or that promotion, what's preventing you from asking? And you got to explore that fear in there a little bit. And then finally following up, and this is where I really believe the world is very interconnected. You know, used to be seven degrees or six degrees of separation. I think it's much fewer than that now. And following up is where you're creating your network, you're creating your community and you're creating a raving fans and everyone can help someone else and the more you help them, it will come back. It's not just Karma, it truly is reciprocity. But it's our responsibility to continue to follow up, and that's why I say follow up with gratitude, because, whether the answer was yes or no, that's a gift. And even for season sales pros that are listening, if it was a no, thank you're lucky stars and move on. We Fall in love with potential right. So it's one of those things where we can follow up, we can stay in touch, we can put them in article file, whatever it is, but it allows you the freedom to choose the next piece of your plan. So good. I love those five steps. And again it was very you know, the things that I'd been cognizant of before, but the way that there's a structure around it was very helpful for me, is someone who is not comfortable asking for apparently what I deserve in general. So I really do for folks listening if you identify with me, or even younger Cindy, who didn't have these this this, I guess,...

...confidence at some level or or clarity, are all these themes. It's so interesting. So much of what you're talking about to reminded me a lot of what I work with when I work directly with our customers and potential customers, around getting comfortable on video, because it is, you know, at some level there is this idea of selling yourself, just being present on camera with a message, whether that's a hope of sincerity or gratitude or concern or caution, or answering a question or defining a process, getting in front of a potential question, like all these different ways that we could use video, and we're probably using typed out text right now. There's something about being yourself, letting go, being present, being available for somebody else and being confident doing it. That is absolutely the same psychology, the same challenge as as what you're helping people on lock with the sales motion. That's my segue into you sent hundreds of videos yourself, video messages, using Bombom, and you're kind enough to suggest that other people do it as well. Talk about that connection I just introduced and then start get you know, going wherever you want, with how important it is to be present with other people in a video message compared to faceless, typed out text that's anonymized, not really associated with a human writer, per research and a variety of other factors. So pick that up and run with it wherever you want to go. Well, want to pick it up. It with something that you said about being present and comfortable on camera. I wasn't in the beginning and it's funny because people think you, you know, you get up in front of five hundred people and give speeches, and I'm like that's really different than talking to your laptop. So so I really is. It's kind of freaky in the beginning, and so finding how you can become present and it does take practice and giving yourself permission to get it wrong the first couple of times and thankfully it's a recording so you can redo it. You know, all these things, but but that was, you know, the first thing in the video part where we really first started using bombomb and sending those video messages. But you know, the thing that struck me the most is the response, because, remember, for selling we're looking for an emotional response and you know you guys have the Woohoo button and you know they can click to get on your calendar, like however you structure it. But what was amazing is even if they were just in type world, you'd get an email back and it was pretty immediate and it was how did you do that? Wait a minute, what where did you get that? How did that have you know, they always want to know how it happened, but it is aught. It is obviously hitting a nerve that nothing else was and we're so lost in an email these days, and there's nothing wrong with email. I send hundreds of emails too, but we get lost in that and I think part of this cell gets lost in that. It in in this hybrid virtual world that we live in now. We are trying to bring the human factor back into it. Rehumanizing your business for my friend are but it truly is. We're not doing a good job of it if we're not finding ways to connect. And video is available and it's one of those things that you can and it shows your passion. You can see the emotion, the body language and plus it's just fun. It's better to watch a video. I mean, good Lord, look at Tick Tock write like we want videos. That our lives. We'd rather watch a video than read an article. Why aren't we doing this? And so what I would also offer is how do you want to be known? You know, how are you selling yourself? Is it that you want to be known as the person with the, you know, three screens of paragraphs of text, or do you want to be the one that's like, oh my gosh, happy birthday to you, here's my love message. Check it out. It's all part of the way you're selling yourself and so giving yourself permission to maybe do it wrong in the beginning, until you get comfortable. Yeah, like anything new. Some really important that you said there is that, you know, we really want that emotional reaction in any sales motion. Again, every job is a sales job. We're all selling our ideas, are ourselves. We're asking for micro yeses or macro yess or something in between. We need approvals, we need open doors, we need all these things from other people and we're in this ongoing give and take with the people around us to create new rual success. All the things that you've that you articulated already. But that emotional reaction piece is so key and it's a deep, deep human experience factor, dynamic, visual and emotional. And when we think about face, look same black text on the same white screen. That doesn't differentiate you, doesn't communicate is clear, clearly as you do when you use your face and your smile or your cautious face or your surprise eyes or, you know these other things that that we do automatically. It's just so much richer and more...

...natural to the human experience and so it's just a shame that the same thing that holds people up from asking for what they need sometimes right. You're sometimes we're selling because we need something, not just that we want it right, like I really need this is preventing people from being more human. In this motion you mentioned happy birthday, which is a great, great use case. It's easy if you don't have it in your crm, good news, Linkedin and facebook tie it up for you every single day and you might not send a birthday video to all of them, but you know, if you see those four birthdays and you're like, oh my gosh, I haven't connected with her in so long, I'm just going to send a simple video. What are and I have already meant I looked in our admin database before cargo cous hundreds of videos. What are those videos like? What are a couple other ways that you use it and why? So my favorite is actually the thank you, and I do of personal thank you. I don't have I mean, I'm sure you saw it in there, but I don't do canned videos. They're all individual and I like to make it super personal. So I'll use there's an APP that I'll use that I'll have your name on it. So the thumbnail actually says like High Ethan, so you know it's not a spam video or something. And I like props, so like a photo booth, I have like a big thing that says thank you. So I'll hold that up sometimes. But that's one of my favorites because follow up and gratitude is kind of my jam and it's it's magic when you get that, like I love getting those, and it does. It conveys that enthusiasm and conveys that emotion and hopefully makes their day. And you know, I say this to clients all the time. I'm like, would you rather get a birthday text or birthday video? and like birthday video. I'm like then, why aren't you sending that? You know, with let's lead by example here. But the thank you was one of my favorites. The other video that I love to send that is a little bit underrated, I think, is the check in, because we do these generic we should get together for coffee, we should, you know, book called a have a video chat. Okay, that's kind of generic and thrown away and even though your intention behind it is absolutely pure, it's a lot more fun to see your friend or your client or your consultant or coach. When I'm like hey, Ethan, it's me and we have not seen each other. Remember what I look like? Let's get together, right, let's get on a video call and you can have your own sense of humor in there as well. I'm pretty goofy and my videos are not perfect. I'm flubbing in most of them, and that's I'm real. I'm who I am. But I had to get myself permission to do that because the first few times I rerecorded about a thousand different times. Yeah, I mean that's a that's a that's a very natural tendency. A couple key ideas in there. One, I mean it is about you and your personality. I think the same reason people don't give themselves permission to sell and a high level sense. You know, I talked with a lot of people that are kind of that. There's a little bit more quieter there, more analytical there, they're more soft spoken and they say, well, Gosh, Dr Cindy's a bigger personality than me, she has props, all these things and and I just want to encourage anyone listening if someone has said Yes to you before in your career, yes, I will hire you, yes, I will make that introduction, yes, I'll sign that kind look, whatever the yes is, are big and small. You are good enough and you were that. You got that yes based in part on who you are, and so this idea of hiding behind this cloak of digital and on emity and refusing to be president, to be available and to be uncomfortable the first handful of times in a video is just really a missed opportunity. The other thing I want to hit really quickly. I just want to validate because I I heard it in how you described it, but I but I want to I want to ask it very directly. You mentioned the nature of the replies and something that I've experienced where I'm sending messages like you're talking about, like fun ones, just to get back in front of somebody you haven't communicated within a while. Birthdays, thank Yous, those types of things. So often you all are. You mentioned like you could make someone's Day. Those are the types of replies I get like, oh my gosh, I totally needed to hear that. Right like you see something on facebook or Linkedin. It's not super positive. You just like Hey, I just want to let you know. I saw that you liked to new common and be follow up. I I do sometimes follow up and, just like Hays, want to let you know I'm thinking about you and if I can, you know that. This kind of thing. So, whether it's that or something just enthusiastic and supportive and positive, I get. That made my day. I totally needed to hear that. Oh my gosh, that was awesome, great email. And very often it's multiple punctuation points and or one or more words in all caps and or kind of emoticons or even like the bootleg emoticons with the colon in the parenthesis, smile kind of a thing like and what I what? I what I've been reading it as, and I'd be curious your take.

A. Is that your experience? And be I'm taking it as they're trying to give back the same warmth and energy and enthusiasm that a video naturally captures and conveys, but they're restricting themselves to this channel that doesn't allow them to do and so they're doing just the best that they can. It's really funny that you say that, because that's absolutely true. I had a team that was here at our San Francisco office the last couple of days and we were doing some workshops with them and I of course sent a video message to thank them for coming and, you know, had my thank you and all this stuff, and I got back about a thousand exclamation points, or each one of them, and Smiley faces and I got one of the little cat faces and all these things that I'm like, or you could just hit video, you know, but it is it's that. It's that desire to match the energy and I think that's what we're doing and and to go back to what you're saying, like, you know, yeah, I'm I'm energetic and that sort of thing, and you get the person who's maybe more analytical or more shy or even an introvert, and they're like, oh, I can't do that. But think about the message you're trying to get across. All you're trying to do is convey a message. If you're sharing spreadsheets and numbers and trying to convey that message so that they get it, wouldn't it be easier to do that standing in front of them? Well, this is as close as you're going to get, so why wouldn't we do this? But we sort of again tell ourselves, oh, but I'm you know, I don't do that because I do spreadsheets, which I love a spreadsheets right, and the other thing too, is it's a synchronous so it's easier. I would I would hope, then just walking to someone's office and trying to say the same thing or getting out a live call. I would be remiss if I did, if I did not say in a recorded setting, congratulations on signing a deal to get your second book to market. Tell us a little bit about it. Thank you so much. It is going to be on selling yourself, so more on the personal branding angle and how to really promote yourself to get what you want, and there is a big section on permissiveness and getting over that. That's the x factor in this one, if you will, and so I really want to help people, especially with all the things that have gone on in the world and people changing career paths and really putting themselves out there. It's more important than ever to know how to position yourself so that you can advance, and so I really want to help folks. So that'll be out later this year. Awesome. If you have enjoyed this conversation. I have two more than I know you're going to love because a both of these people are connected to both Dr Cindy and I on Linkedin and be they were both featured in our second book, Human Centered Communication, and it's filled. Both of them are experts in confidence, confidence and sales confidence on camera, all the things that Dr Cindy has been talking about here. The first one is one hundred and fifty six with Julie Hanson and actors guide to authentic videos. That one, as Julie, is featured in chapter six of Human Center communication and Steve and I have a great conversation with her. On episode one hundred and fifty six. She was a professional actor. She got into acting because she was seeking more confidence in her sales role and then has since kind of put those two together consulting on how to be more confident on camera, in particular in a sales context. And then a little bit earlier, episode one hundred and forty nine, with Lauren Bailey a factory and girls club. We called that a blissful approach to training customers and employees. She is a trainer by background, so that conversation we cover a lot of ways to like teach and engage people. And in the book, of course, she is a sales expert as well and talks a lot about that confidence piece from the sales side and finding your authentic voice and being present in all of these themes and in so Dr Cindy, I've loved this time together. The reason we talk about these things often is that they really once we can unlock these with people and for people. I got to imagine it's one of the reasons that your work is so satisfying to you and you continue to pursue an advance and grow and learn and reach more people and write more books. Is that, once you can get to the other side of it, it's just so liberating and freeing from a lot of the things that we're holding ourselves back with. Yes, and that is literally what gets me up in the morning. My favorite thing is when people will email me or message me on social media and they're like, I saw you speak at such and such and I did it and it worked, and I'm like yes. So that is literally what wakes me up every single day and keeps me going. Awesome. Well, I'm going to let you think someone else the way that you were thanked for something that you delivered to someone two days ago or two years ago. I bet that's Super Fun to like, I gotta tell you that this thing in November two thousand and nineteen and like, oh my gosh, I've life changing like years later. I'd love for you to give thanks or mention to someone who's had a positive impact on your life in your career and then, after that, give a shout or not to a company, your...

...brand that you appreciate for the experience that they deliver for you as a customer. So the person that I'd like to thank is her name is Laura, and she actually it was the interview for the job that ended up being my first sales job, and she saw something in me that, honestly, I did not see in myself and had she not seen that glimmer of whatever it was at that moment that I could morph into this, I would literally not be here today and would not be doing this work. And she continues to be somebody that has a continues to have an impact on my wife. Actually we've stayed in touch, but had she not taken a chance and sent me through to the second interview with the owner of the company, never would have been in a sales roll, never would have been doing this so big love awesome as a customer. Are there any brands that deliver a great experience for you consistently? Yes, so I travel a ton, even you know, with what's gone in the world, and when we were talking about doing this podcast, one of the things that I thought about was the airlines, and they're getting a lot of negative play, but I have to say united is really good to me, and so the main one is I think of all of these times that I've been stranded or there's been an issue or there's a maintenance something and they've gone over and beyond and not just doing the job of getting me home or getting me to the location that I need to be in, but it's the experience of it, and that's really what impacts me, is that they're not doing it because it's this perfunctory thing they have to do, because they have to get me out of the way so they can talk to the person behind me in line. I actually feel like I'm madder and that continues to have an impact. And I've flown every airline, as you can imagine, you have to, but that's what keeps me going back, is that I feel like I'm not a number, I feel like I'm an actual person and I have multiple stories of theirs of flight attendants and pilots and all sorts of things, but they consistently are one of those that I know if I need something and I need to get somewhere, they're going to make it happen. That is awesome. I mean, that's why I ask these questions at the end and almost every time I hear it, you know, like it makes me excited for the people that have been Laura for me seen something in me that I haven't seen and I hope that one day, whether it's in a context like this or something similar, that someone that I might have done that for somebody else and it it keeps me on point with regard to that. And then this idea of like making people feel me. I want every listener to hear that clearly. Airlines, they get beat up. They can be seen as partly as commodity. It's just who's going to get me there cheaper or on the right schedule, whatever the case may be, and it's making people feel like they matter. Like that is the differentiator. By the way, for what it's worth, I'm also a united Flyer. If I have a choice, I I also fly united. Dr Cindy McGovern, you are awesome. I've loved every conversation I've had with you. This is the first one I've recorded and released. I know other people are going to enjoy it too, and for those who did, how would you tell them to follow up, to connect with you with orange leaf consulting, with every job as a sales job, or perhaps even the forthcoming second book? Yes, so thank you so much for having me, and I agree. I have enjoyed every conversation and this has been such a treat. And for anyone that is looking to get in touch, I am checking my own emails and I am checking my own social media, so please reach out. I'm on all the platforms. First Lady of sales, or Dr Cindy, and you can find me at Dr Cindycom and Orange Leaf consultingcom and I would love to hear from you and I would love to hear your stories on how you're taking this and getting more of what you want and deserve by giving yourself permission to sell. Awesome. Thank you so much, Dr Cindy. Thank you for listening and I know that she is sincere. Reach out to her. Some of our guests are as open as that and they mean it. If you liked what she had to share, if you want more, reach out to her. I know that she will personally respond. I just have to say that because I do the same thing and I hear from so few people like I want to like and anyway, and I know you're sincere in a too. So anyway, I appreciate you. I hope you have an awesome afternoon. Thank you for spending time with me. Thank you so much for having me, so good to see you. We have art in box constantly foam. We constantly have messages coming in work email. Just whine, not to one O one. Have Ninety nine plus six hundred and seventy nine on ready emails. We're here to talk about a major problem. My name is Kitpbodner and I'm the chief marketing officer at help spot. I probably get ten to fifteen phone calls a day unwanted, and I probably get fifty a hundred emails a day unwanted. When I think about noise and trying to get that out of my life, I think about it through my most scarce resource, was just my time and attention. Is it worth my attention ever here versus... me, spending a moment with my son or cooking a meal with my son? The answers almost always know. We also know that the byproduct of that noise is feeling overwhelmed, feeling like there's not enough signal and that you feel discobobulated or confused. That's at least how I feel, so I also tried to protect myself from those feelings as well. Watch dear first name, a four part first of its kind documentary series now on Youtube and explore how digital pollution is eroding our ability to communicate with each other and build trust.

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