The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

198. Sell It Like A Mango for Better B2B Sales w/ Donald Kelly


How does selling mangoes from a Jamaican street cart lead to skyrocketing success in today’s B2B sales environment?   

In this episode, I interview Donald Kelly , Founder and Chief Sales Evangelist at The Sales Evangelist and author of Sell It Like A Mango: A New Seller’s Guide to Closing More Deals , about the best practices when it comes to training-up a successful sales organization in today’s marketplace.  

Donald and I also talked about:

  • How CX represents the buyer’s whole journey
  • Why it’s important to use a cohort approach in sales
  • What mindset helps to overcome fear in sales
  • How to achieve pipeline accuracy
  • How hosting your own podcast adds value   

Check out these resources we mentioned:

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, or Google Podcasts , and find more episodes on our blog.

The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Being a street cart vendor on the streets of Jamaica is a lot more like being a be tob sales professional in today's selling environment then you might think, and in this conversation you'll find out how, why and what to do about it. Our guest is the founder of the Sales Evangelists, a training, coaching and consulting company that helps sellers and small to midsize companies be much more successful. He's the host of the sales of angelist podcast, which has more than two million listens and more than a hundred and fifty companies. He's an adjunct professor of sales and he's the author of a brand new book. Sell it like a mango, a new seller's guide to closing more deals, which a I really enjoyed. Be is just a couple of weeks from release and C is available for preorder right now. Donald Kelly, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you so much for having me. I'm appreciate, yeah, the opportunity to be here Ethan, and for that awesome introduction. I think we are going to need to pay you to rewrite my intro and I'm totally fine with that. I'd make I'd be happy to and I would volunteer to do even kind enough to have me on the sales of angelist podcast. It's a joy. I really appreciate and respect you as a person. I'm really glad you finally got around to writing a book. I really enjoyed reading it. Will definitely get into the themes of it, but we're going to start where we always start here, which is customer experience. When I say that to you, Donald, what does it mean? You know, it's I felt. I feel like that term has become so much more powerful to me over the years after being a sales rep and the reason is because, as as you gone through the sale side and then go through the time now where I'm a business owner and I'm buying a lot more, I see that some companies it's it's scattered like they don't have something cohesive. And when I think about the sales experience, of a customer experience, I think of that whole journey, the buyer journey, that someone goes on from actual inception of an idea the introduction to the brand, how they're connected with their sellers and with the client success team and also their experience with people who be who are in a background, and I think oftentimes people don't focus on that, that whole journey will experience. It's just the front end sides of just being with the sales professional and it's a it will be to their detriment. So I've stressed the idea and I'm a big fan of being just like the full journey and in a little nutshell or long rumble, aunt ramble answer, that's how I feel about customer experience, of Customer Journey. Awesome, a lot of good ideas in there in the interesting thing to me, just knowing you a bit, is this idea I never realized, although it's obvious when you say it then not only, of course, were you a sales rapid for a variety of different products and services and situations and customers and experiences yourself, you know, being being in that role, but also as a business owner. Now you're doing a lot more buying and seeing a lot more stuff, not just consulting and teaching and coaching other people, but also just straight buying yourself, and so you're seeing people in like an untrained environment. Oh my goodness, yeah, it's really it's fascinating because some brands get it, I find like and it's some people just know you and all around. And I'll give a one example that stood out to me. My wife worked in the corporate scene as well and one thing that she she saw she was in a back end of a commercial real estate office, like your back office. She doesn't like the sales side, says, she wasn't on the front end, but one of the thing that she saw was like sometimes you the tech team, the people who would work with these continents that these large office and office buildings like they didn't get that their role was just a part of much of the part of the customer experience as much as the the broker that's brokering a deal. And they missed that and oftentimes they didn't see that the person didn't see them as, like, you know, just a tech team. They saw that the whole organization as a whole field. So they could have done great with the the you know, with the initial introduction and initial contract and signing, but overall, I score you all school the or scort the organization low. And she always dressed that to me, and it's just one of those things that stood out, that the sale or the customer experience is always, always, always moving, always going. Absolutely true, and it's the foundation for repeat business, for ferral business, positive word of mouth, online reviews, etcetera, etc. One of the sub questions I often ask you just kind of addressed it a little bit. I often ask people, especially people that have worked in very large companies. You know, do you prefer to see this as a culture and ethos of the entire organization or do... prefer to see it as a role or a title or a team and and the most common answer, specially for large people's like kind of this both and but what you really spoke to there's that no matter how large your organization is, it really needs to be a predominant cultural component and ethos that everyone is coming from a cut. You know, these are kind kind of trite to say, like a customer centric perspective etc, because everyone affects it. You've mentioned your business owner. Let's go into that for just a minute. For folks who aren't familiar, tell us a bit about the work that you're doing at the sales of angelists, like who are some of your ideal customers, like the type of companies that you like to work with and what problems are you solving for them? Yeah, so let's go back to maybe start with a problem and we can go from there. I start my podcast in two thousand and thirteen and I was a fulltime software sales rep and at the moment, at the time when I was doing that, and it was a the biggest thing that I had, a biggest issue that I had see the past, a couple years before that, before I really started to thrive and starter to be successful in my sales career and making pretty decent money, was that I was banging my head against a wall. I was trying like all of the different concepts. I was reading a bunch of different books, I was doing a watching all the youtube videos and listening to podcast, and yet there are podcast. Back then, maybe four sales of podcast. But the thing was I was I wasn't I didn't have like a clear path as far as do this backtoback to back to back to be able to succeed, and a lot of the programs that are out there was like this. You know, like you go for like a one day or half day and you go to this workshop and you get a crash course and and you lose everything. you only retain like seventeen percent of the things that you learned. So I found that I wasn't being I didn't have a guy to be successful. I went through some training programs that was more long term and it opened up my eyes and I started really thriving succeed in sales and I realized that sales wasn't as complex and difficult as I was Mike. Well, sorry, there were complex sales, but it wasn't had. It didn't have to be as confusing as I was making it. And the team that I worked on it was an amazing company. They put me through some of these trainings and I skyrocket with my performance. So I started to share these ideas and it podcast grew and then a business grew and I started to coach individuals and from coaching it led to consulting and consulting led to US realizing how can we really scales? So in two thousand and fifteen I jump ship and started the sales of angelist and it was really focus again on coaching then, but over the years we've seen that the cohort based they approach was really really critical. So the way that works for us we do we have different sales programs. So these programs will last anywhere from four weeks to seven weeks for this long term idea of make sure that we making sure that we are helping people to build habits and to make sure that individuals to companies in the sellers are seeing their Roy our programs consist of anything from like business development. We have a program on a foundational program which is like a full cycle sale fellers and for new sellers. We have some programs that round linkedin round programs around utilizing like a different outreach strategies. We have programs for mindset, time management. So with all of those again the principle is build habits and to help to sell or maintain and to grow. And it's awesome the clients that we service. Many of them have been small business but as the over the years we've been expanding and going upstream. Were spending a lot more time right now with like mid market companies, teams with a little bit more sellers and some of them are trying to get into enterprise accounts and we're having a fun time with a lot of them are tech based, just because of the nature of the my background and also nature of what we do with within you know our podcast, a lot of people who tend to find it are in the SASS or tech world. So that's a littit about us. I love the cohort approach. I think it is it is that social aspect, kind of that shared accountability. A lot of people that I see getting coached, you know, they know what they need to be doing in a lot in this is well beyond sales. A lot of people that I see getting coach know what they need to do, but they need that structure, they need that accountability and I think the cohort provides a really interesting layer to any kind of structure that you might put around the training. You mentioned habits a couple of times. That is obviously the key. I guess. Just for a couple quick and fun takeaways, we're a couple habits that you think most professionals or even more specifically, most sales people, and let's be even more specific and say like most newer sales people, if they just could pick up one or two of these habits, they would automatically be in a better spot. Prospecting without even thinking, and I know it sounds like you know Donald, everyone knows you to do that, but I get paid to remind people and teach people how to do it and oftentimes we find all the most beautiful excuses in a world why I don't need to or I can't prospect. But it's the top of a funnel activity, especially for a new seller. It allows for you to have more conversation, it allows for you to practice and to try different things and once you can get your own footing, it makes it so much easier for you to progress and to be able to help your clients and help the potential people that you're working with. But prospecting is one of those top habits that I wouldd say,...

...and another habit that it's very simple and very easy and it was so something I believe in so much that I should have created a planner for it, and actually you have a program on it now. But it's as time management and you're planning like sellers. I've seen, I can tell you, over and over and over, and it's not only what sales people if you want just thirty minutes a day, just like a quick review for your to day tomorrow, and spend at least like, you know, an hour, hour and a half throughout that, maybe the weekend, and prep for your week. I'm not talking about just, like you know, looking over your calendar. I'm talking about really planning. We're going to see him, you know, backup plans and having structure as far as how you going to do this. If you can do those two things, your prospecting and you're planning, you owning your time, focusing on sales related activity, Bro you're going to really, really thrive. You're going to you're going to shatow records, you're going to retain, you're going to hit your target and you're going to double. So I's give me. You're going to probably ramp twice as fast, because most people are winging it and most people are not necessarily doing the right things. And when I talk about the idea of doing the Cape Your weekly planning, this also includes like understanding your Kpis, because it and now if you're focusing on a right sales activity and doing right prospect and activities, understanding the numbers that you need to hit, come on, it is going to be so much, so much easier for you. I did it. I was one like when I was a sales repe I was taken excel documents and tracking my my Kpis. We had sales force. Now's pulling numbers, some sales force because I really want to see where I was eithern like how many? How many calls do I have to do in order for me to get that a first appointment? So the now my planning session became critical that now for the next two out for two hours of day, I'm doing these calls into this outreach because I need to hit my numbers. So those habits became things that were like paramount for my success and what I helped my clients with. And the data just doesn't lie. If you can help new sellers master those two money in a bank. So good. Okay, a lot of things here for people who are listening. First, thank you for joining us for this conversation. Second, we put up video clips at bombbcom slash podcast. We do you write ups of all the episodes. I put in five video highlights for every episode. I assume you could feel Donald's passion through that response, but you also need to see it. I will definitely take that clue that as a video clip, just the you know it's you're obviously just so convicted about it through your own experience and through helping so many people through it, and so I'll use that as a transition in specifically into the book. Sell it like a mango, which, again, if you're listening to this at were near the release of this episode, you're less than two weeks away from it being shipped from wherever you preorder it from. So you should definitely give that a look. Sell it like a mango. And a couple key things in your last response that that made this an easy transition. First, you did such a nice job of breaking down your own experience and you did it even talking about the founding of the sales evangelists, breaking down your disciplined approach, and you even shared it there in the prospecting response, in the time management response, this disciplined, thoughtful approach to the sales process which I think a lot of people when they when they think about sales people in general, because a lot of tight we host sales people, we host customer success people, we host founders, we hope host marketers, we hope host branding experts, all kinds of people to talk about customer experience on the show. So a lot of people listening aren't in sales and I'm grossly generalizing, but I think you might even make the same generalization as someone who focuses on sales and work with sales people all the time. You know, it really is that the stereotype is that undisciplined you know who just like you know, all of the sudden they get this windfall and they're making more money than most people in the organization but they don't have that structure and discipline. But our success really is in that. In in the book you did a really Nice job of breaking things down. It's fun, it's personal. Will get into the personal components in particular, because you're the only person that could have written this book. I've read a number of books that are probably a variety people could have approximately written. This book is so uniquely and distinctly you. But then like lists, lists of questions, lists of you know, reminders and activities, lists of ideas like it's really structured there. It's obviously got a very healthy philosophy to sales, this idea of sales as helping, not as selling, as you know, asking questions and supporting and serving people, not just persuading and convincing and cajoling people. And so anyway, I guess I'll turn that into a question now again, good job on sell selt like aming go. What was your what was your hope for a reader like in approaching this? It seems like it was inevitable. So share anything you want about kind of the the origin of the project and what you hoped people would get out of this finished product now that it's about to hit the market. So I'll go back and give credit to a Zulteran. If anyone know a zul he and he can go ahead go to my linkedin or facebook and connect. But Azul is. Anyone does a guy named Pat Flynn. He's an online space as well, and he helped hat flynn write a book. And Azul and I was in a mastermind and for years. Let's go way back, all right. So my I meant with sound wisdom in two thousand and...

...fifteen, two thousand and sixteen ish, right after I started really going serious with the sales of angelist and they started to see success with that and they wanted me to write a book and I was like I don't let's think about it, and I started. I created something and a little you know, like a an idea, and sent it to them and they said okay, let's keep going with this path. And we just lost connection and I was working with a Zul and my mastermind, and he helped hat, and so he was asking our master mind group. He's like, Hey, you guys on a shelf like I've been working on. So I started working with them and I took about another two years to finish it at that point. So like five years in this whole book. The first direct the first one I took, the first draft. I literally took manuscript and we threw it out a window and Redid it when I started working with a Zule, because it's exactly what you said when a zool first ready. He is like, Donald, this book is anyone could write a book on sales, but I want to hear your story. So he had me do we did a brain dump and we did a mind maps to talk about your upbringing, talk about your first sale. Why? What were you trying to sell? And I told him about this Ninja bike that I was trying to get across the street. Well, the Ninja Bike, it's folks listening. It's a Ninja riding a motorcycle, which is weird and funny in and of itself, in black but with really cool redd and white stripes, like I could see this things. It's as you were telling the story. So anyway, you saw it in a Tory store and you're like, I want that thing. I really wanted it. It was a this. In Jamaica they have a fat you know, a lot of people have tendas, are like a little store at the in there in the neighborhoods, and we had a small one was more like the staples, but the one across a staple products, not staples to the warehouse, but the staple products and like rice and's food and meat and so forth. The one across the street they had like almost like a mini gross room, like almost like a mini mega store, and they had toys and I remember seeing that Ethan and I was like I want to get it so my like quick at my first go back to my friend, my cousin's a couple weeks before, while back, that asked me to go and pick mangos from the top of a tree because I was the smallest kid in a family. So I did that and get the higher the branches. Yeah, so they got these mangoes and other like there are good people like mangoes. What if I try to sell mangoes? So I tried to sell mangoes and then I try to sell cookies, but the mangoes would have best, and I tell you why. The first day I went out and I had the mangoes on this little plat stand that my aunt had. Maybe at any I need to send you to picture so you can see it. We went back to Jamaica in two thousand and eighteen or two thousand and seventeen. We I found this plat stand was still in her yard. I took a picture with it, but I took this thing and I put like the cookies there and at the time was a mangoes, this time the first time, and I had it there and I was getting ready to sell Ethan. And guess how much money I made that day when I first went out, I'm gonna Guess you made zero dollars and you ate at least one mango exactly, probably maybe ate more than that, but nothing. And the point was I was behind a gate, I was high, pretty much hiding per se. I was hoping that people would come to me. And then I was thinking what made some of these other people who were selling mangoes, like in a market place in Jamaica, like? What made some of these other people so much more successful than I was? The mangoes coming from Jamaica, their mangoes coming from the same region. Their product is no different, like maybe different type of mango, but the point is it's the same, pretty much exact thing. But there were making money and I wasn't. And I started breaking it down and I realized that if you want to succeed, you have to do what these people were doing. I was hiding, I was fearful of rejection. I didn't have a plan, I didn't have strategy, I didn't grasp you, I didn't have a message of how I didn't have a reason of value, proposition behind my mangoes or none of that. So I said, as I talked to Uzul about this, they said, well, you need to talk about the book just like that. Donald, let's break it down with that same idea. Let's sell it like a mango, and I was like man, that's actually a good name. So we started to play with that. So we sell it like a mango. Whether you're selling software or you're selling complex, you know, manufacturing equipment, it doesn't matter. They're going to be people doing something that you do and the differentiated at most sales people default to is price. No, let's get past that. Let's sell on the value and follow these strategies and sell it like a mango and succeed, just like the street card vendors were selling the same exact product in Jamaica. I love it. It really really comes through and just a pro tip for people listening, I have personally just related to your story. I've personally sold hundreds of bombam accounts one to one in trade show booths and it's so funny, like we we were really good at that as a team, like we really thrived in that environment a it's like direct human to human. It kind of brought us to life a little bit. But we would go to these these conferences and trade shows and expos and set up our booth and you know, I could go deep into the strategy on it. The key idea that you shared there that triggered it for me, the memory and how important it is, is getting out from behind the table. Stop sitting, get out from behind the table, look people in the eye and talk to them. And it's not would you sit down and watch this demo, it's just like to...

...people like get out from behind there and then it like and that just goes to the basics of kind of no like and trust and this opportunity to create discovery through conversation, etcetera, etceterady. So key belief expressed early and often throughout the book is that anyone with a desire to sell can succeed in sales if they get and use the proper training. And I'm going to give you a couple quotes and then kind of turn it into a question. Selling is the key to survival in Jamaica period. There's a lot of just natural entrepreneurship. It's fundamental to life and you mentioned your cousins or a lot of family members that are mentioned throughout, just like sales as inherent to the process. Sets one quote and then the other one is it wasn't necessarily the product that made the difference, it was the seller. Success lies in the individual. So you've already addressed this a little bit, but feel free to add or elaborate onto that as much as you want. I mean there is product parody, and by that I mean features and benefits, especially in software, approximately the same and if there is a gap of competitor can close that gap in a matter of weeks or days or even hours, depending on the nature of the feature. And you know, prices are approximately similar. Where do people go wrong here, like and maybe what's the key to unlocking that? How do we make sure that more people understand that they are responsible for the success, no matter the excuses or other places that we place our blame? Yeah, and I want to give a big shout out to aunt Ivy, and I totally ivy passed away like when I was about seven as a kid, but my my mom came to the US. It's when I was six and I don't know if I if you even know this part of my story even, but my mom came when she was sick, when I was six, my brother and I stayed in Jamaica as she was trying to establish herself as that life in order to bring you. Yeah, so three years so I v was who I live with and I with her family and I'd seen all that she did. She was at my second mom, I called her mom. So we saw, like saw what she did. She would come to the state and buy products and take it back to Jamaica. And here's what I want to really emphasize about the idea of the it's in the individual, because other people did that as well. A lot of people came to Miami, a lot of people got stuff took it back to Jamaica. But again, what ivy did was just like it was in o her. I mean the the the the work ethic, like being up and going out overnight. I didn't quite get it as a kid, but I remember like sometimes Friday, like Friday evening, they'll go out and stay, stay the whole night to prep for Saturday and Sunday at the market, because those were early started at a market and because those were critical times. You have to get there early, get to spot and and so forth. And you have people who lallagag and try to get there and early in the morning and you know they were already too late, because IV in those top sellers were ready there. They understood their customers, they understood the problems, they only stood the pain and these people they were able to it was in the individual that made the difference. And I come back to the be tob side. In the software or any type of a be to be a product, what I find often is that the individuals are depending so much on features and benefits to be the closer when in actuality, everyone is doing the same thing. So then, therefore, the buyers, it's really hard for them to witness ort, to see a reason for change. Status quote then becomes one of the biggest proponents of not moving. So sellers who are who recognize this and understand this and recognize that they make a difference. Because if the product is going to be at the product, you know looking at products going to be the same idea. I don't want my customer to go into the notion of thinking, well, I will just, you know, I'm just going to go with any of these vendors, or I'm just going to you know, just just think about it. I want them to know out compelling reason why they should come about making a change and go back to what you said about like trade shows like I find oftentimes as sellers, when they get down to the nitty gritty and they're able to talk to more customers, they find out more and more reasons why and find out what the success when I used to go to trade show with the companies that I worked with, I would hear our current customers would come by to booth and said, oh my goodness, you all solve this problem for me, and oftentimes there was a problem that wasn't necessarily initial problem that we that we understood. They found are use case with our solution that I didn't know about. That then allow for me to have compelling reasons when I'm doing my pitch to be able to stand out. So then this is what we call in a book the blindside challenge. And if you, as a seller, if you're going to make the difference made of you maker your your your understanding of the clients issues and your ability to be able to express solutions to that and speak with stories and to give ideas, it's going to be so much more important for value rather than the product. So let's say, for instance, go back to the amazing water bottles. Here I'm selling a water bottle. And I tell you know, everyone might see the desaunty water and it said was this water bottle is great, it's cold water, it's delicious, is equal, ECO friendly and you know, Bepa for proof, free or whatever. All those are given. Those are the things that should be. There's a default. Everyone's going to say that, but the individual seller. Imagine if a seller then points out and says, you know, you know most people, you know, and for instance, even most people don't recognize that the skin is the biggest organism in their body and...

...they spend so much time focusing on drinking healthy water that they don't realize that when they take a bath they're drinking more water because the skin is an organ taken in more water than they might have realized. So in addition to drinking our desany water, we have purification system that allows for great water to come through your your faucet. That's only a that's me it. Can Marketing do that, of course, but a seller who can ask questions, who can then go deeper and who did the research, can have those type of versation. That makes their makes them so much more valuable, rather than somebody who's just an order taker talking about the features and benefits. I went on for probably too long. They're get too excited for this topic. No, dude, it's great. I actually pulled I pulled several quotes and that's kind of what we'll do next. But I pulled that whole section on being nose blind from page one hundred and three like so, and this is super funny. I thought about this before. So for folks listening, then you can kind of correct me on it where I get it wrong. But you know, I remember as a kid, as I started to get older and I could like go play at other kids houses and have sleepovers and stuff, it's like their house smells different than my house. You specifically talked about it in terms of the smell of cooking in the home. Yeah, and that you you know, you smell like it, your clothes smell like at the house smells like it. You become noseblind to it, and so the same phenomenon shows up in our businesses, in our lives, and so our customers are often blind to these these subtleties in these nuances that we can learn from other customers and we can turn that into value for people and help them not be blind to things that are slowing them down or confusing them or frustrating them or holding them back from their goals. So you did not go on too long. You actually just took one of my questions off the day. But I love that nose blind thing because I remember thinking the same thing as a kid, like how different everyone's house smells. But then you turn it into this really practical sales advice which again is just like this nice blend between personal and professional that made the book so fun to read. Here's another one from earlier in the book, page fifty six. Fear is unhealthy for salespeople. It prevents them from truly enjoying their job, doing what they love the most and helping people. Not only would I love for you to go into fear and what are a couple like basic underlying fears, because I feel like you've addressed a couple of them subtly already. You can go right at him. But then, just like this beautiful language of enjoying their job, doing what they love, helping people, such a start contrast to this fear component. So share any thoughts you have on that, on those ideas. All right, there's a philosophy in a book to that I address this principle called a moral obligation. It goes back to your purpose. Like I feel as the sales of angelist, I have a moral obligation to express and to teach that there's a better way of selling, an easier way of selling, and that selling can be successful for anyone if they get the proper training, because I've been there and I've seen it over and over and over and over again. If I could succeed, you know, poor kid from Spanish town Jamaica, and to be where I'm at in my career and with a business, anyone could do this if they know exactly what to follow. So, with this notion now understanding, like the moral obligation, this then helps to tie back to the notion of fear, because when I was starting to remember, the first one of my first big deals, are big prospects that have reached out to that actually responded, was a bank VP in south Florida and I, you know, I did the all the stuff. I sent him a emails and he was interested and then we're having an initial conversation and my fear was that if I go on this call, I'm not going to be able to have anything of value to create, to say to this guy, I'm you know, I'm I'm young. This person is season in their career. They've worked with many different bigger companies and here is the here he is taken a call from me, a lonely junior seller. What I came to realize, though, with the fear, was that it was preventing me from helping him to solve a problem that he had. and Go back to this moral obligation idea, that's what my I have a moral obligation when it comes to sales. When I was selling software, I had a moral obligation to tell people about the software that I had. It was a document management solution and I believe that I drank the coolate on that company because I saw what results it brought for our clients. So my moral obligation was that I need to help people to realize there's a better way to handle your paper than the way that you're doing it. Whether you buy from me or not, I'm here to deliver the message and I need you to be able to understand. Whether you choose or not, that's up to you at that point. And when it come back to fear, I am not helping people to do that, because oftentimes, when we have fear, I am only focusing on my feelings and what I'm doing rather than what I could help the prospect Oh to achieve an outcome, and that's selfish. That is purely selfish. So when you have fear in sales, it's been it's enabling selfishness. That's in not providing. That's inhibits you from really helping out the other people. I mean and just like simple like, I cannot tell you like and they imposter syndrome. This is another idea, not necessarily mentioned in the book, but many of us have that where we feel like a Charlottean when we first go into a new old like...

I don't know anything about this product and here I am pushing it. People are going to see through me. Oftentimes they don't know the product like you do. You probably have been there for a week and know more about that solution than that person who's been in banking for thirty years, because they have never utilize your software before. Your job if to help express to them there's a better way and there's a better solution, and that comes by and come down to that problem. So fear doesn't need to be in sales. We don't need it at all. I love it. There's such a parallel to some of the work that I've done here at bombomb with, you know, people thinking that video messages are about them. So they get in their own head. They're afraid of what they look like and sound like, when if they would just drop the cloak of digital in onimity and stop hiding behind the keyboard and just record and send a video message to answer a question or to say thank you or congratulations or to provide some corrective feedback, you're doing this in service of other people and when you focus on doing that in service of other people, the fear piece just becomes irrelevant. It just goes away, but it but it is kind of a conundrum for people, or a paradox or a catch twenty two or whatever. One of those was accurate. Okay, new topic, different quote. This kind of on targeting in segmentation from page eighty three, not that you know exactly what's on waking, just saying that so that you know that I really had mango. Sellers don't chase everyone. They only only the people who are likely to buy. They also don't go too far from their stands, mostly to be sellers, however, figuratively, chase prospects who aren't going to buy and in the process, Miss People who would have been perfect for their solution, letting them walk right past their quote stands. And so I love this. It's just like such a nice parallel, but to the core idea of the book and a Nice Metaphor. But but talk about that. We go chase things that are that aren't likely to buy, that are outside kind of like the the easy and obvious bounds. Like talk about that problem and talk about kind of the targeting, segmentation and the selfimposed or self inflicted wounds here. Oh Man, I love this, love this, this idea, and I'm sure if anyone have ever been to any Caribbean country, you probably think you visualizing and seeing this. Like imagine somebody there with that stand and just like, you know, leaving it and leaving so much business there. And we would never do that with a stand. But why do we do this? would be to be sales, and what I mean by this is like say, for instance, you start because of a because of your your heartfelt desire and because you feel that some company would be a great fit for your organization. You spend time going and chasing and running after the run wrong prospect and it even especially for new sellers. What they typically do? They go for the customers or the potential customers who are easy to speak to, but the ones who can't buy. Let me give you an example. I remember many of days speaking with, you know, administrative assistance and speaking with end users of our in the city county governments of our solution because they were answering a phone and they ain't got nothing else to do. There are your government job and they're sitting there so they will have the conversation. When I wasn't able to get through the directors or the it or the city managers or or the you know, the superintendence, I wasn't gable able to get through those, through those people. So I justified my time chasing and selling to these people who like to talk to me but had no comprehension or capabilities to be able to in influence the deal to move forward. And essentially I was wasting time with them when I could have spend time going after maybe another individual and another county or another city who could be more likely to buy, who could have been the person walking right past my stand who could be looking for a solution to make that easier. And Right now, in this day and h people who have intent, Mace, intent, bas selling tools or sales enablement tools like six cents or Zoom Info can do some of that by seeing individuals who are searching and looking for the products of services that you have rather than taken a while goose chase and just going after other people. And one of the laws that sales people have, traditional sellers, I'm going to put them in this bucket, are those people who think that they can convince anyone to purchase their solution. So therefore, it doesn't matter who you are, I can convince you to buy it. But the best sellers are just like good lawyers. They pick and choose what case they're going to go for because they're only going for cases that they can potentially win. I have a sales code client it right now in a price seller. His marketing team hates it because he does not fill his funnel with deals. That would be, you know, just to just to have deals in the funnel. He's very methodical with the prospects that he's that he works with and that WHO's going to call on and who's going to and where and who gets to get to different stages of his pipeline. His pipeline accuracy is like ninety percent to a hundred percent, like it's fascinating what happens, but it's not filled with tons of opportunities. It's only with the opportunities that are...

...really progressing and that's going to close. And it makes a big difference for him. And that's why he's in owner's Club. Forget about President Club. He would past president clubs. Now he's owners clubs that he has stocks in a company and it's because of that simple notion that he only sells the people who potentially could buy and doesn't leave a stand and chase random folks. Baller, I position that is TEX segmenting and targeting, but really you turned it into a much better position, which is qualifying. I think there's we could have a whole episode, of whole conversation just one qualification. How do we do it? Why do we do it? You know, I see people that have like well, you know, they set up all these numbers, like these targets and all the assumptions built in are like, you know, ten percent of people are going to get from here to there. I'm like, really, couldn't you just qualify it better and make that thirty percent or forty percent like anyway their number of levers we can pull. But you also teat up another one that I pulled. Well, only do a couple more of these. This is about people persuading themselves and you talked about people feeling like they can convince anyone to buy. But here's a quote from thirty eight. We love the status quo. It's comfortable, familiar and safe, at least in our mind. As the expert, it's your job to help them recognize the need for change and to help them persuade themselves to make the change. So there are two big ideas in there. You can speak to either both of them, you know. One of them is just like we typically lose, not to a competitor. The greatest competitor of all is no decision. So that's one. Like people are comfortable in the status quote. They're not picking your competitor against you. They're picking not doing anything rather than picking you most often. So moving people out of comfort in and the perceived comfort and safety of status quote. But then also this idea. You're not. Your job isn't to persuade them, it's to help them persuade themselves. That's how the decision gets made. They make the decision in themselves, not because of you. You just support them in persuading themselves. So this come. I first got introduced to this idea when I went to my first ever sales training, formal training, and it was a it was a starts like total start difference. I will remember watching Boiler Room in college, in high school, and I saw vendiesel and all these actors who were just their job would convincing and tricking people at any means necessary to buy the stocks and so forth, and I was like, those guys are great sellers. Look at that, they got somebody to do something that they didn't want to. That is powerful and I was like lears. Later I realized those people were con artists and that's not cool. That's what that is. And when you think about it, though, Jeffrey Gettmer said, and he may borrosis from somewhere, I've heard in multiple sources, but it says people love to buy but they hate to be sold. I don't hear people say I was sold a house today. I was sold in New Tesla, I was sold on new mat but pro like people say, I purchased a new house, I got a new car, I got a new Mac, but pro and it gives them the sense of excitement and thrill because they chose to do it, they had ownership and they were part of that process. When sellers really want clients who are going to have great customer experience, we're going to be evangelist for their brand and who's going to help bring others to come to this organization, they help those individuals to make the decision themselves to do it. Anyone who said I was sold something has a high chance, I would put money on it, of returning that product or canceling that service because it wasn't something they wanted, it was something that they were coherst or tricked into getting. When you are able to ask the right questions, when you're able to educate someone enough that they understand about water and about the fact that they want purification, purified water, and now still get there, they're not. They get them with a blindside challenge saying well, you're not doing that because you're taken bath and in the untreated water like that's something that you educated people on. That person then start to make the decision. Well, I don't want that. I want my life to be in Congruen. See what the water that I drink. Therefore, I am going to invest in doing this, and price doesn't really become an issue at that point because the value is there and the person is choosing to do it. I mean so often we might think that. You know, I had to limiting belief of that. Like my product is. It's, you know, a hundred of ten dollars more than the next product. We need to beat we need to drop our prices. It's a per unit price. It's that's not the case. And obviously you don't want to rip people off and make a false numbers and, you know, just to extort people. However, you have things that are value. People can recognize that value and you can best do that, if only, if if you're able to help them to make the decision themselves and to take ownership of it, and that person is going to become an evangelist for you. So good. We do have to make the decision inside ourselves, and those people that say I love this product or this service or this company or this brand so much I'd be twice as much. I'm glad they're not charging me twice as much, but I think twice as much, maybe three times as much.

Like that's what this is about. Those such a great take. I love it. For the sake of time, I'm just going to hit a couple other points that I loved. I loved your take on assuring the sale rather than assuming the sale. A lot of people talk about assuming the sale. There's a whole section in the book I'm speaking to you, the listener right now, on assuring the sale. That's a really good one. Experience is not expertise. Is something I've thought about for a long time and you express that really well on our read a quote. I meet sales reps all the time. We've been selling for ten plus years with only one year of sales experience ardens, meaning the first year of their career was the only time they actively sought any kind of sales education. So essentially just getting experience doing the same thing over and over, which doesn't provide this depth of expertise. And I guess I'll turn this last one into one because throughout is obviously your own investment in your encouragement for other people to invest their time and attention and resources into continuous learning and growth, which I just think is healthy for any human being. I think we that's what really brings us to life and helps us thrive, especially when we do it in relationship with one another. That's why I love your cohort idea so much. But one of your recommendations, and I think it was the last chapter on continued learning and Growth, was to start a podcast. So I'm just going to kind of take us back to the beginning of the sales of angelist story. What are just a couple just practical tips, like so, when you thought, you know what, I'm going to start a podcast, I think a lot of people are on the outside of this opportunity looking in there. Like I listen to a lot of podcasts. I enjoy them. It's something I think I would like to do. But DOT, dot, dot, problems, confusion, ignorance, whatever. Give people a couple pieces of encouragement to do one of the steps that you provided in the continued learning chapter. Yeah, and I'll put a disclaimer out front. I mentioned it are the very beginning and here's a this. Is that why Ethan is such a good storyteller, so I'm able to tie the beginning too the end. Now my first when I first started podcast there were four other podcasts out there. There's JEB blunt and several other individuals that weren't too active, and I told member my my good friend jared easily, if anyone's in the podcasting world, they know about podcast movement. And Jared was like, you know, you should start a show and I was like, man, there's are the all these other shows out there already now in a podcasting where I think there's like two hundred and fifty plus just sales podcast and that's probably a conservative number at this point. So the point is there are in any niche, there are going to be more people doing it. and Go back to another thing, and I'm I'm prefaced all of this again because I know the folks out there saying the same thing. I said, well, there's so many other people doing it, you don't have to do a sales podcast. And if you think about it, I had someone also told me like think about books. You know why in the world I write another book when they're I forgot, I don't know how many books there are. That's ever been published. Think about and all the EBOOKS. They're billions of books. They're out there. Why do we need to add another book? Because that's my story, that's my experience, and there's going to be maybe not seven point five billion people who are on a planet will purchase it, but I might get that, you know, the several million people who could benefit from it after they listen to Ethan's podcast who can benefit from this. So they'll check it out. So here's what I preface it with that so you know you're not going to be you're not going to be only one, and I got you lucky with that sense, because I was doing hard work and and an hard work. We're hard on lease and opportunity. I was doing a podcast and opportunity came where it was a few podcasts. So fast forward. Now I have a multiple podcast and I recommend people still do podcasts because of the idea of the niche, because and now it's niche down even more. So Ethan is in the sales arena with this podcast, but it's only on this on a client customer service, customer experience, I would say, arena, kind of sales and marketing related. So as an individual, I recommend you do it and there's several reasons why you should do a podcast. One, when you do a podcast you get a chance to learn. I was sitting down with the likes of Jeffrey Gettmer with, you know, JEB blond, Jill Con Rath, somebody is amazing best selling authors that I would get thirty minutes of forty five minutes with. That, if I got their programs, would have been like two thousand, three thousand dollars to be able to do and I was able to eat up information from them. That's made me so much more different than my team members who weren't doing that. So that's the first thing, the education. Number two is the network. I have over a fifteen hundred episodes that I've done and probably close to about eight hundred plus of those episodes were with a guest and I think about the people that I've been able to connect with and to be able to have relationship with, like Ethan, for instance, if I asked them if about my book and he was able in willingly invite me to come on this podcast because of the network and relationship that we've built. So that's the second side and a third third parts about this too is that you focus. You can also do your podcast in a way that you get connected with your ideal customers as well. So, whether you're selling whatever you're selling, you you don't need to have a podcast about sales if you're in sales. No, that's my business. Your podcast could be about go back to water if you sell purification system. Imagine if you had a podcast on stories on you know, was I drinking that? And here cool stories of people drinking you know what they were drinking and how enter changed their life. I mean I'll find...

...some of the stories interesting to check out if it's entertaining enough. Right and and those are some of the things. Because now, imagine if you get your ideal customers to be your guest on your podcast, that's going to give you an opportunity. Or if you know's a twenty five percent of your guests or ideal customers, that's going to help you so much to be able to connect with more organization, people who are walking past your stand, who may be able to buy your mango because they now see your stand and they may not have seen it before. So those are the top three reasons they'll tell you. If you're thinking about it is sitting on a fence. Podcast is an awesome, awesome opportunity for education, awesome opportunity for you to be able to like network and then finally to for you to be to grow your business as well. So good everything you share. It has been my experience. I'm much shallower in it than you are. I'm currently prepping episode two hundred right now, so I'm way behind you, but I'm three years in and everything you said is true. I often call it a master's degree that you cannot buy. And when we when we chose the name and theme the Customer Experience Podcast, there were only a couple other like explicitly customer experience podcasts at the time and most of them weren't even active, like they hadn't published in six months or twelve months or whatever. If I was to start this over again, I would absolutely niche it down, because customer experience is just become even much more popular in the business conversation over the last three years and it's been a privilege to be part of it. But everything you said is absolutely true. Anyone listening has any questions, you know where to find us. I will make myself available to answer any questions about it, because I also share your passion for the format as four books. Actually have a couple other conversations I'd like to point people to with other people I respect who've written great books on similar themes. So episode one hundred and twelve with Lisa Earl mcloud. I don't know if you know her, Donald, but she you. I think you would really enjoy her. She wrote two books, selling with noble purpose and leading with noble purpose, and this noble purpose is a lot like your moral obligation. It's just like, what is the real deeper purpose? What problems are we really solving? And being in touch with that allows us to persevere through the hard stuff and gives us that sense of obligation. Like I got to keep going because there are people that I haven't reached that need my help, that need to at least understand this opportunity or need to have that blindside awareness so that they can drop the blindness and move out. So, anyway, one hundred and twelve with Lisa Earl mcloud on noble purpose, and more recently episode one hundred and eighty two with Andy Paul. Sell without selling out is his book. It also has a lot of him in it. Some similar themes and some similar lessons, but from completely different personalities and background. So, Donald Again, well done. Way To tie and sell it like a mango. At the end of that last response, I'd podcasting and using the stand analogy. I think it works out really well. I'm so glad that you were challenged by someone you like and trust to go back at it turned out really nicely. Before I let you go and before we tell everyone where and how to get the book and to learn more about you and your multiple podcasts and the sales evangelists, I'd love for you to do two things for us all. One is thinker mentioned someone who's had a positive impact on your life for career, and too is to give a not or a shout out to a company or brand that consistently delivers a great experience for you as a customer. I hope this one is not cliche, but I'm give a shout out to my mom, so norma, and the reason is my mom was, like I mentioned, she was an immigrant to the United States. She came, she worked real hard, did the multiple jobs and whatever you ask or why she did it, she said because I wanted you all to have a better way of life, and that impacted me in so many ways, not only in my my my schooling, but also in my stills world activities and also in the business that I have. I don't want to waste this opportunity. I don't want to. I want to be able to create legacy. I want to be able to build on what she did gave me, and then so my son can build off of that legacy as well and make something even better for it, though, I'm the foundation that she she did and the things that she created, that she had a deep impact on who I am, in the tenacity and excitement and the passion and Energy and motivation than I have what I do on a day to day basis, though. Thanks Mom, big shot out norma beautiful, not cliche and just so nicely express and there's so many just good family stories in the book. I felt like like a I was hearing you as I was reading, and be that I know you better than I did before. That not not try or Cliche it all. I was beautiful. And how about a company or brand? Yeah, I want to give a big shout out to logic tech. So, and the reason being I had a I've bought my I'm using a logicic camera right now or my for this podcast, and it's the one of their ten ATP like a hundred bucks or for this camera and I recommended to any one about it. Like it's seventy eight bucks before. This is my third one and I had an issue with one of them once and I called up logitech and they quickly replaced it. They didn't have me ship the product back. I actually gave it away to one of my friends...

...because it was broken and he has a brother of family member, brother Lat us, like electrician, and he was able to solder it and now that cameras fixed the wire and were broke. But the point is, logicech they were just like really quick, within like two days. They knew that in the pandemic, when I will where, I was like I needed to be able to have good video camera for good experience. I told him about my podcast and so forth, and it was like a rush delivery within like a couple of days. was just brought giving back to me and it was amazing and I'm just super grateful for them. And I know everyone knows about the apple so I didn't bring them up, but they've done similar thing. I had a computer that I I spilled water on and we shipped it out to get it fix and they just overnight it and got me a new computer. And it's just like brands like that just makes it so easy for I can for me to evangelize about them. So logic, tech and a big a nod to the folks that at Apple. Awesome, so good and I really appreciate that. Just the contacts like like we're in the middle of a pandemic. We're all relying on our cameras more than ever, even people that never didn't even know how to turn their camera on or relying on it daily for some of the most important work that they're doing. It just the sensitivity to that and just like the not requiring people to send it back, like what do they they're not going to sodder it and refurbish it and like, like, I mean, it's just not it's not that kind of a product. And so I'm a good job do you for finding a new life for it, but be for them to like recognize the context and just be there and minimize the challenge like pushing back. Like can you tell us the story? What's Do you have the serial number? Do you have the receipts? Like? What's your address? We're going to make this good, just awesome. Okay, for folks listening, if you want to see what Donald looks like through his logitech camera, you can go to bombbcom slash podcast. I think this is going to be episode one hundred and Ninety Eight, but we write them all up. They're all in chronological order and I'm going to drop a bunch of links into that post at Bombbcom podcast to but Donald, you're about to tell me what those links are. For people who love this conversation and want to know about more about you, about the sales evangelist as a company, as a podcast or a podcast set and a course about salt like a mango, where would you send people? Well, the first one. If you want to get into check out the sales evangelist. Go to the sales evangelistcom and you'll be able to just find opportunities to to see some of our training programs and check out our cohorts and got an idea of what we're do, what we do a little bit deeper. If you're interested in take advantage of the book and and you're on defence and you want to make the decision yourself and not be persuaded by Ethan and I, go ahead and check out the first chapter. Go to the sales of angelistcom mango, and when you do that you'll be able to get the first chapter as a download, as well as get the opportunity to get some awesome stuff from us and get in communication with me as well. And if you're on social and you want to be my friend, I'm on INSTA and also on Linkedin, where I spend a lot of my time, probably too much time, but Donald C Kelly, on both platforms awesome and absolute pleasure. Well done. I hope this does help get your story and your message and some valuable tips two more people. I really, really enjoyed it and I hope you have a great rest of your day even thank you so much. I appreciate you. The digital, virtual and online spaces where we work every day are noisier and more polluted than ever, and the problem is only getting worse. At risk or relationships and revenue join bombombs. Steve Passanelli and Ethan bwed along with eleven other experts in sales marketing, customer experience, emotional intelligence, leadership and other disciplines to learn a new way to break through the noise and pollution. Human centered communication a new book out now on Fast Company press. Learn more by visiting Bombombcom book or search human centered communication wherever you buy books. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcast player or visit bombombcom. SLASH PODCASTS.

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