The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 128 · 10 months ago

128. Shifting Your Focus to Account-Based Experience (ABX) w/ Jon Miller


Just because someone fills out a form doesn’t mean they’re ready to talk to a salesperson. Two problems stem from this fact: the problem of discerning which leads are ready and the problem of how to nurture the ones that aren’t.

Welcome to the explosion of martec.

In this episode, I interview Jon Miller is Chief Marketing and Product Officer at Demandbase and previously co-founder at Marketo and Engagio, about account-based experience (ABX):

Among the things we talked about were:

- The evangelistic sale

- The analogous relationship between CX and ABX, and B2C and B2B

- Who’s responsible for company culture (not just the CEO)

- MBAs are important for career switchers

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The customer experience is sort of thesum of all the interactions that the customer has with your company throughout their entirelife cycle. If it's an account, it's the sum of all the interactionsthe account has at every stage to through their account journey. The single mostimportant thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience foryour customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way.This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. Todaywe're learning from someone who's been out in front of two significant trends that havemade a significant impact on customer experience, Marketing Automation and account based marketing.But we won't just be talking about C X and ABM. Will also betalking abx account based experience. Our guest was co founder at Marquetto, apioneer and marketing automation, where he was the first CMO and help build thebusiness to a hundred and fifty million in revenue and a billion dollar plus IPO. He was also cofounder and CEO at engage EO, a pioneer in accountbased marketing, where he let an acquisition by demand base. Today he servesas chief marketing and product officer at demand base. John Miller, welcome tothe customer experience podcast. Hello, how are you? Awesome. Thank youso much for doing this. I've known of you in your work way backwhen you hired a guy, a friend of mine, DJ Waldo, atMarquetto as an early evangelist, and so maybe we'll talk evangelism later. ButI spoke today with a mutual friend of ours, Brandon Red Linger, andhe let me know a he says hi and be he says that you mighthave something to tell me about scuba diving. When I say scuba diving to you, does any stories, products experiences come to mind? Well, yes, because there's a topical thing on this one. So Att Demand Base.You know, every quarter we do something called Shark Week, which is aweek where we have our entire companies just focused on going to generating meetings,and so I actually shared a video out with the whole company just earlier todayof a time when I went diving in Australia at the manly aquarium in theshark tank which is your very cool experience. You like get to go in likeU you're swimming around with with all these sharks, and my wife wasdown there with my kids and they get sort of be in the aquarium tube, you know. So they're watching you, you know, as you kind ofgo around, and so there's this one point where, you know,I'm like spending more time looking at my family than I am at the shark, because I'm like waving to them and all that kind of thing. Andthere's this video of this twelve foot shark swimming behind me. I'm oblivious toit and like it just kind of literally starts, comes over my right shoulderand over my head like the like an...

...imperial Star cruiser or something. Yeah, and it's like I'm like Oh, what the hell that you know,and I missed it. So that that that's my diving story today. It'svery top of mine because it's Shark Week. So funny. I love this,this image of people, humans on both sides of the glass, youknow, engaging with each other as if one isn't an exhibit, but it'snot clear who is which. As so good quick practical question. Shark Weeksetting meetings. Do who do you bring into that like a do you bringin people whose job isn't necessarily to set meetings, or is this like areally fire up for those people that do that work? Well, we tryto do a cross functionally. So I mean we create teams and the team'skind of compete against each other for as the most meeting. So yeah,obviously strs are making meetings, but a's as well. Then we also haveour account man. There's like getting meetings with customers and that kind of thing. This year we even brought the customer success team in, where they're competingto see who can invite or get the most register and signed up for ournew advocacy program. So you know, we really and the marketings involved supportingall those teams with kind of reasons to call, reasons reach out, thingsto set up. So it's a fun kind of week just to kind ofget everybody amped up so good. I love it and I just appreciate allof the customer contact. So let's start where I typically start, which iscustomer experience. When I say that to you, John, does it meananything in particular? Yeah, so, I mean obviously you know the customerexperi variance is sort of the sum of all the interactions that the customer haswith your company throughout their entire life cycle. If it's an account, it's thesum of all the interactions the account has at every stage to their accountjourney. And you know, as we all know, the companies that kindof deliver the best experience tend to also deliver the best revenue growth. yess. So do you advocate for a signing customer experience as a role or atitle or a function or a department, or you view it as something that'sshared by all in kind of thematic or a, you know, an organizingprinciple for work? Like, how do you think about it functionally? Ido like having kind of a chief customer officer, you or some sort ofperson who, overall, is accountable for the customers. So I'm going togive you a yes and answer. And at the same time that person isn'tthe one interacting with the customers. Yeah, and so you need to drive thatinto kind of every touch point. Again, Adm Lens, the firsttouch I mean there's the Cot, the content people are seeing and the marketing, the thought leadership that they're getting. That's part of the account experience.That outreach from the str has a huge impact on your your account experience.was this some spamming email that like they're just like, you know, hey, do you want a good get married on the first day, or isthis actually something valuable and useful and educational? So every one of these things,you know, collectively add up to the count experience. Yeah, sodraw that line a little bit. Account...

...based experience or account experience versus customerexperiences is just different language, just based on your go to market. Well, I mean I do think it's a bedb Lens on the traditional customer experience. I mean not not that the customer experience CX world is all be Tocfocused, but I like throwing the account based Lens on top of it becauseCX tends to make people think about each individual and while that matters, youalso need to think about what is that kind of roll up together to theaccount. Yeah, yeah, makes sense, like it is an evolution on Abyeah, so we will absolutely get into that either very soon or inlike maybe ten or fifteen minutes. So before we go farther, for peoplewho aren't familiar, tell us a little bit about demand base a. Whydid the merger or acquisition make sense with Engagio, and then second layer kindof like who's your ideal customer and what do you solve for them? Sodemand base is the largest account based platform. Vendor. Demands was the original ABMvendor. You know, kind of didn't invent the term, but reallywas the first vendor to say, hey, we're really applying technology to solve thispromise scale. We're also the largest with over seven hundred customers, whichputs us at about easily double the sort of next closest come. Any.Demand based historically had been the innovator in I would call a digital approach toABM, which I'll characterize as to maybe this is really good at helping ourcustomers identify and find the counts that matter and using intent data, which wecan talk about, to really know what which of those counts are are inmarket actually want salesperson to reach out to them, and then using advertising,account based advertising, to sort of build awareness to the rest and then,when you do attract them to your website, web personalization to give them those accountskind of a more relevant, highly convert you a more relevant, usefulexperience. So that's really what demand based did. standalone and it's that itwas valuable, you know, to kind of find, to trap and attractthe counts that you really want to go after. I started engage you comingout of Marquetto with a much more marketing automation Lens on ABM, which isreally about a single view of the account, pulling all the touch points and allthe signals and all the data points you have about the account into asingle pan of glass that then marketing and sales can use to understand the accountand then to use that information to start to orchestrate interactions and campaigns. Right. So, at engage you, we didn't own a channel. We weren'tthe AD channel, weren't the email channel, we were the orchestra conductor that kindof made all those Kana campaigns work together and then we measure the results. So it's interesting is even though demand base engage you were both abn platforms, almost no functional overlap between the two.

And when I sat down with theirnew seat, the demand Miss New CEEO gave Roguel, just over ayear ago, and we really talked about here's what we do and here's ourroad map and then, well, here's what we do in our road map. We realize these jigs off puzzles just fit together perfectly. So we didmerge the companies moved like the wind to deliver a unified platform, which weaccomplished five months. I'm incredibly proud of that accomplishment. And so now wehave that new demand based on platform and it is the best of both thosethings I just talked about. We help our customers build an account foundation sothey have a single view of what's happening both on your site out on theopen web and augment that with additional data, and then we help them use predictiveanalytics to find the counts that matter and know who's in market. Map. It's the account of journey. Engage with them in an appropriate way.Again, we're pitting where they are on the journey. Different interactions are goingto be appropriate, and then close them by working in a very coordinated fashionwith the sales team. Really Smart. Does it carry ice? Does itcarry backside to do it help, obviously, with account management and the sustained growthwithin that account? Yeah, I mean it tends to be slightly morerevenue focused then success focused, but a big use case of this is findingpockets for cross on expansion, because you might have a division at a companythat is a customer for product a. There might be another buying center atthat same account who is just actually showing intent for product B, and youknow making sure you can alert the account team about that kind of stuff.There's an interesting use case also around retention and intend data. Even if youhave an account that starts showing intent for one of your competitors, that's asignal on alert you should your CSM should know about right away. So thereare definitely use cases across those different pieces. Love it, so do I'll takeyou up on that offer you made a minute ago. Yeah, goa little bit deeper on intent data. What should someone who is just onlyfamiliar with it in name understand about intent data? It's level of validity andyou've already alluded to some of its use cases. Sure. Well, goodanalogy. I mean a lot of markers have gotten used to marking automation lastten years where we're able to track the digital body behavior and we're able tosay hey, this this person is on my website and they open that emailand they downloaded that white paper and that's all information that we can track becauseit's kind of been our own site in our own world, which is cool, but what's happened in the last five years or so is marketers have gottentired of getting a phone call every time they download a white paper and they'vesort of gotten savvy about it and they're either not filling out the forms orlying or they're doing their research out on...

...the open web more than just comingto our own site. And so intend data is really how do we getsome of that visibility back to that digital body behavior that's happening out on theweb, if you will, and fundamentally the way it works is a simplekind of for step process. One, the intend provider needs to get somesignal that a person is or that a cookie really is on a web pageand there's different ways the ten provider can get access to that data. Forexample, get is a review site and so they know because people are oftenregistered on their system, they know who the person and they know the pagebecause it's their own website. At to man base we get our data becausewe're connected to the bed advertising bit stream. So there are two million websites atanytime. They show an article to somebody in an ad is presented,we're going to get that signal back. So that step on is just youget. You get something amount of signal. Step two is match that signal tothe company and you don't match it to the person because that's personally identifiableinformation. GDP are problems and screepy, but it you can pretty accurately matchit back to the company. Using a year ago, the primary way youdo that with with Ip address. Now that we're all working from home,you do it more through the cookie. They got harder and there's a lotof data science involved to try to map individual cookies to two companies, butyou do match it up to the companies. Step to. Step three is youunderstand what the page is about, you know, and sometimes you canjust look at like the keyword content on the page, but not always.Example I like to use on that one is just like the keyword lead score. That might mean that it's, you know, somebody who really cares aboutMark Automation and predicting which leads how the hottest to go to sales. Itmight mean who got the most points in the basketball game right, and soyou need to sort of be a little smarter than just looking at keywords andlike understand the context of the page and the nuance. which leads us nowto step four, which is you have this like data set of accounts lookingat topics, and then you throw lots of machine learning at it and youfigure out, first of all, baseline patterns and you say, hot thisaccount tends to read a lot of content about cybersecurity. So if I sellcybersecurity software, that's probably a more interesting account to me than one that doesn'ttend to read a lot about cybersecurity. Or maybe that account that doesn't reada lot about it still is one I want to go after, but they'rejust earlier in, they're in the process. And then the other thing you dois you look for spikes and patterns and what we actually what demand baseddoes, is we actually look at the patterns and intent that your opportunities,your customers, go through as they lead...

...up to becoming a recognized opportunity bythe sales team, and when we see other accounts that show that same pattern, we're able to identify it before they are the opportunity and say, boom, this is one used to be paying attention to. We call that amarketing qualified account. It's like a play on the classic nql but boom,pay attention to this one. Reach out to them because, you know,normally people don't want to get called by a salesperson, but there are thosemagic moments right when they're that entering that research cycle, when they actually areopen to a relevant outreach, you know, and those the spikes in the intentdata, is how you kind of, you know, identify those. Toreally that pattern matching layer that you added the end is super, SuperInteresting and obviously for folks who are listening, this obviously create team much better experiencefor people, especially when you're reaching out to lend that support. Ithink, you know, to the back to the you know, filling outforms, perhaps with fake information. I mean, not only did we notwant to because I was, you know, on the receiving end of a lotof that. Not only do we not want to get a phone callimmediately, but often times that, you know, what was being held behindthat wall wasn't that interesting or useful anyway. And so you know it over promise, under deliver type stuff, and so this a this ability to forecastinterest is very, very interesting. Thanks for breaking down those four steps.was very helpful and I would like to go back, if you don't mind, I would love to go back to two thousand and three, two thousandand four, you know, just before the founding of Marquetto like what wereyou seeing in the world at that time that said, all right, let'sgo do this, the world needs this and the world is ready for this. So I'll put the two really big factors. The State of marketing automationin that time was that it was all traditional on premise software. I workedat a company called Epiphany, which was actually the hottest IPO of to ofthe Internet bubble, and this was like three four hundred thousand dollar. Software. Companies good buy and then they spend at least that much with accenture toget it implemented. And that was what people did when they needed marketing technology. And frankly, as a results of that, Martek never took off becausemost cfos think of marketing as a cost center and you don't typically do bigcapital investments like I just described into cost centers, and so it was veryhard for marketers say hey, let's do this big investment, you know,for you know, for for me. The flip side, though, isa marketing has very large opex budgets, discretionary dollars. You know, theycan drop fifty grand on a trade show pretty easily. And so right aroundthis time, software as a service was becoming mainstream and that was really,honestly, a huge unlock for marketing because it allowed vendors like Marquetto to comeon board and say, we're going to give you this powerful, enterprise classsoftware that you might have spent three hundredzero...

...dollars for, but we're going tolet you buy it as easily as you buy Google adwords, and that thatwas a real just unlock on the business model. The other big thing thatwas going on is that, again it's time frame, markers were just reallybeginning to generate online leads at scale. Remember, Google ad words only lastin two thousand and two and so markers, honestly, for I mean for thefirst time, we're starting to kind of be exposed with this problem ofhow do I capture these leads that I'm generating off of these Google Clicks andother things? I need a place to put them. Oh and by theway, just because somebody felt out my form doesn't mean they're ready to talkto a salesperson. So how do I identify the ones that are good andhow do what? How do I nurse do something with the rest and notjust drop them on the floor? And so those two things came together.A business problem of needing to sort of manage these leads and an economic modelthat that markers buy it. That was the really caused explosion in Martok.Really interesting. That shift to to a an operating expense rather than a capitalexpense really good, makes perfect sense and, of course, the opportunity at thetime. How, for better and or for worse, where are wewith marketing automation? How is it evolved and or how has it been stagnant? Well, you know, I mean marketing. We built on our marctimationaround the lead, you know, and that's something that you know I talkedearlier about. You people were cutting generating all these leads, and we builtit with a model that was very focused on marketing, almost doing a baton. Handoff to the sales team, I generate the lead, it's ready togo. Here you go. And then actually we built a feature in Marquettowhich, when sales took the took it, we would turn off the marketing tothat person because sales doesn't want US marketing to to their deals. Sothat model has ingrained in the technology and it's also very folcus on new logoacquisition, and that's hard stuff to have all about away from. I meanthat's deeply embedded in the product, in the way it works and all thatkind of stuff, and that's ultimate what part of what led to the opportunityfor all these new account based venders. I tried to do adm back atMarquetto with a tech SAC of Marquetto plus sales force, and we had goodresults, but it was really hard. I mean I made my team kindof crazy with just literally all the contortions we had to do to try tomake it work. Yeah, I love it. You. You already startedanswering where I wanted to go next, which is, you know, flashforward to two thousand and thirteen, two thousand and fourteen. What were youseeing in the world at the time? That said, all right, nowis the time for a an offering like in engageo. You've already previewed alittle bit, but feel free to take another step deeper into that. Well, again, it was it was one of those things where, like,I could see that ABM was starting to become a term out in the marketplace. You know, it was very early of the conversations going demand based,just starting to get some traction. Finally...

...talking about about the concept. Andthen I replied that to the fact that I had the business challenge of hey, I was trying to do it, but it was hard. So gladlydid some. There's some opportunity to kind of go in and disrupt the space. Interestingly, I wasn't the only one. Terminus got started around the same time, and so you sort of almost saw this whole move of people whocame from the Marquet Automation Industry Moving His star ABM companies, all in twothousand and fifteen, and that kind of, I think, led to the explosionof the virtual circle of benders talking about it. Customers are excited.More Mender's talk about it, customers get more excited and boom, here weare five years later. Yeah, and I love it. I obviously itwas a pressing need. I mean you already explained it. I've heard somany really good origin stories that are based in I had this problem. Ineeded to solve it and I realized that everyone else had, or enough peoplehad, the same problem that I could, you know, commercialize it. Anotherarea of interest is for me, you know, talk about generically.The term is like an evangelistic sale, right. So when you're pioneering ina new space, you already mentioned that. You know that the buzz was gettingaround, but there's a point at which your I. They're solving anew problem or you're solving a familiar problem in a new way. That requiressome level of evangelism where you know the marketing process, in the sales process, is as much about creating awareness and understanding of the problem, not justthe solution. A did you experience that, you know, in the early stagesof Marquetto and Engagio and be what is the transition point like? Whendid you feel like, okay, the market understands what we're doing now,so we can change our sales and marketing language or process like when do yourecognize that people are coming to you in a way where they clearly understand thehard and I'm asking this in a somewhat self interested way. You know Iat bombomb we make it easy to record and send video messages in a varietyof platforms and circumstances and you know we're somewhere in that transition where enough peopleunderstand what's going on but there's still not clear that what I'm doing today Ishould maybe changed had a little bit. So, like I just assume thatyou experience similar being so early kind of in both of those categories. Whatwould you say about evangelism and the evangelistic sale? Well, I think firstoff I want to have a knack for it, because I've only done ittwice, but at least twice. You know, I've sort of been successfulat kind of timing a category right when it seems to kind of be hittingthat inflexion point. So I don't feel like either markhamation or ABM, thatI invented it or I advantelize it on my own. I think we've justkind of got in there right when there was a you know, when bothcases there was another come bigger company already talking about it and a look,what are talking about? Mark Animation, demand based, talking about ABM.But I was able to come in and sort of maybe I helped to kindof define it and own it myself,...

...which would got amplified by some otheralso people talking about it. So if you can find that, that's areally good time and place to be, because it's not less heavy lifting thandoing yourself. And then both cases, the thing that really was the unlockfor me was just trying to sort of be the definitive source of thought leadershipcontent for the contract, for the concept. I literally at Marquet do. Iwrote the definitive guide to marking, automation and engage you. I wrotethe clear and complete guide to account BAS marketing. Hundred seventy five pages.I think anybody you read it knew that this is a marketing ploth. Thisis worth the form fell out because this is really good. You know it, and that thought leadership really, I think, kind of helped to sortof establish the connection. Yeah, really good. A little bit of achange up here. You know, you've been early in companies that have experiencedsignificant growth. What did you try to do as a leader in those organizations, like from a cultural standpoint? And one of the things that emerged immediatelyin the theme of this show, and I don't know what number this willbe, like one hundred and twenty eight or something like that. A themethat emerged early in this podcast was the relationship between employee experience and customer experienceand obviously, internal culture is something that our customers experience within through us,in a variety of different ways, some of them more tangible than others.But what are some things you looked for early on to form the type ofculture that you thought would be helpful for the organization and or in growth?What did you do to preserve what was good about the early culture? I'vealways said Marquetto was successful despite our culture, not because of it. You know, I'm Marcatto. We honestly did not spend enough time thinking about culture. We just happened to have a really, really good product in a really goodcategory and that sort of solved a lot of problems. I'd engage you, though. I sort of took that lesson. I was very intentional aboutthe culture. I mean Brian, my cofound and I, we laid outthree sets of core values before we even incorporated the company, and I madesure to talk about them and every company meeting because kind of all the classicstuff. But the point is took it seriously. Another thing that we didvery last early on is we made culture everybody's problem and not just mine asa CEO. We actually created these culture committees and we had one group whoworked on literally, how are you going to pay people like inn promote people, and another group that worked on perks and another group that worked on hiringpractices, and everybody felt part of part of the culture because they were reallyhelping to kind of craft and build it, and we kept that concept kind ofall the way through as we sort of building through the company. Thoseare definitely going to be some kind of key things I pointed to really good. We ended up forming cross functional teams voluntary basis around a few key themesbefore we even had any version of HR here at bomb and then we endedup holding on to it for a lot of the same reasons that you described, and I think it rotates every six...

...months and in so you get theselike interesting blends of people solving problems. Into your point, I think failingto address them stop the answer. Assigning them to some some specific HR typeof function isn't the answer. I love this employee engagement piece of it,especially for the cross functional benefits where different team members get to know people fromother teams. I WOULD BE REMISS IF I didn't ask a quick drive byon this intersection of chief marketing officer and chief product officer. It's certainly atitle I've not hosted on the show before. I can see just looking at you, at your background, I see how they intersect. But how didyou and the executive team at demand base a you know what? Yeah,let's put marketing and product together with John. Sure. Well, I mean partlyit's like I was running product and you know, the biggest fust importantthing we had to do as a company was bring the two platforms together.So we did that, we accomplished it, and then I think what we realizeas a leadership team is great, we've got the best part in thecategory. Now we got to tell the world about it. And so alittle bit as like, all right, give me the ball. You know, I know how to market this thing. So partly was just me saying Ione marketing to but I think the thing that makes it unique for cominglike to man base is we sel marketing software right, it's marking the partfor marketers. So I get to be my customer and and that that intersectionkind of combining my marketing experience and my product experience as a user, asa developer and all that, it does create some very positive synergies. It'sa little bit unique to kind of our situation and I will also say it'sreally hard, you know. So I'm not sure. We'll see how longit lasts to it's definitely a challenge to sort of be running two departments.Yeah, is it a lot of hats switching like like focus has to okay, I'm going to stop doing this and focus on this. Yeah, andjust a lot of manners to hire and a lot of teams to build andall that kind of stuff. So, but's fun. I'm really enjoying it. Cool. Okay, you graduated magnicum laud with a physics degree from Harvard. You're in the top ten percent of your MBA class at Stanford. Iwould love a quick take from you on the value of higher education. Fora variety of reasons, I feel like it's kind of culturally under assault,but I expect that you would say something like it served you well. Ijust love any, any thoughts you have on the value of higher education intoday's environment. Well, I don't regret the sort of physics undergraduate undergraduate degree. You know that quantitative and Olibical research has or mindset I think has servedme well, even as a marketer, which most people tend to think ofas a creative profession. Marketing is all our end science and I think that'ssort of been been really, really essential, you know. And then for theNBA. Everybody's going to say this, but the values in the network,the people you need, the contacts I've been Ablele to make you know. That's that's even more important than anything... actually learn in the classroom.Yeah, very good. Yeah, I enjoyed my MBA experience as well.The one thing I will say about the MBA in particular was that, althoughI don't I can't say I learned this one thing, it gave me abroader respect for kind of the seats at the table. At it, almostany kind of leadership table you'd find yourself at one of the thing also quicklysay, at least about an MBA, is it's really important for people whowant to switch careers. If you're in retail, you know, but youreally want to get into banking, like you probably aren't going to be ableto do that very easily, but you can do it graduating from NBA programso really key for career switchers. Great bonus tip there, and if anyoneis curious about an MBA experience. I only have one myself and it's notas probably as rigorous as your own, but feel free to email me Ethanat Bombombcom and and ask about that if you are listening at this point.I've got two other episodes that I know you'll enjoy. Episode Ninety nine withIan Luck, who is the VPA global marketing at a company called Customer Gage, and the reason that one came to mind when I was thinking about you, John, was that we talked a lot about the evolution of NPS tomonetized npus, to account experience and account sentiment in this idea of moving fromthe individual view on an NPS to an actionable, you know, revenue orientedtreatment of MPs, to this whole kind of account sentiment account experience idea.That was episode ninety nine with Ean Luck, and then much much earlier, episodenineteen, with David Cancel, who is the founder of multiple companies,including drift. Like you, he's a chief product officer. He's chief productsofficer a hub spot for a spell and we talked quite a bit about kindof broader trends, as we did a little bit here too, and thatone was called why customer experience is the only differentiator left. That was episodenineteen. John. Before I let you go, and I so appreciate yourtime with me and with listeners, I'd love to give you two opportunities.The first is to think or mention a person who's had a positive impact onyour life or your career, and the second is to give a not ora shout out or a mention to a company that you appreciate for the experiencethey give you as a customer. Sure so I'll get the shout out actuallyto my high school journalism teacher, Knick Arantina, has been unfortunately passed awaya few years, so we won't go to hear this. As would havementioned, I didn't regard my physics background because it gives me the quantitative,you know, side of marketing. But another thing's hugely important for me asa marketer is my ability communicating right, and Nick taught me how to write, so that I really really appreciate that. Terms of a coming with a kindof great cusper experience, I actually want to give us out of mywife's business. She's an online shoe retailer. Companies called bells and decks, cheboardshoes from Italy that are very kind of wearable. If you read thereviews that she gets on our site, half of them about the shoes,half of her about the experience, and I think it's it's interesting for me, is observer, to just really see how how well just giving people thisamazing experience high customer service really makes people...

...oil to the brand. So smallbusiness and it's easier for small businesses in some cases by proof that it reallyworks. Yeah, I really appreciate both of those very much. You're notgoing to write a hundreds and before page definitive guide without a strong communication foundation, specifically writing, and I agree. I think one of the neat thingsabout I don't know the scale of your wife's business at this point, butwhat you learn from all of that direct contact in generating those first ten fivestar glowing reviews is the foundation for any kind of scale or growth. Imean that that direct communication where you truly feel people's pain at an individual leveland these types of things is without that. My suggestion here's a lot of peoplescale things way too early before they have enough really direct customer contact andempathy and understanding and really earning earning that repeat business in the beginning in anonscalable ways is the foundation for long term success. Well said. Thank you, hi, and thank you so much for your time here. Hey,how can someone follow up with you or with demand base, or maybe ordershoes from your wife? Where some foot were some sites or places that youwould send people to follow up on this conversation? John? Yeah, so, I mean definitely learn about the man basing our site. We have someonline demos that are really awesome. If you have one of digging more,best way to probably find me is on Linkedin. John Miller two and shouldme a message. And Yeah, awesome, awesome. Italian shoes are at bellsand duxcom. Awesome. Exactly is it's spelled? Yeah, cool,sounds good. Thanks so much. Have a great afternoon and thanks for sharingyour experience with us. agare clear communication, human connection, higher conversion. Theseare just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you're sendingevery day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance, so pickup the official book. Rehumanize Your Business. How personal videos accelerate sales and improvecustomer experience. Learn more in order today at Bombombcom Book. That's bombbombcom book. Thanks for listening to the customer experience podcast. Remember the singlemost important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experiencefor your customers. Continue Learning the latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right nowin your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombombcom podcast.

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