The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 133 · 6 months ago

133. The 4 A’s of Customer Experience w/ Leah Chaney

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Not only should everyone want to have customer experience as an integral part of their org’s DNA, but they should also be accountable for the fact that they are a part of the customer’s experience.

In this episode, I interview Leah Chaney, Founder and Chief Experience Officer at BetterGrowth, about her brilliant 4 A’s of Accountability bucketing system.

Leah talked with me about

- How customer experience is like a theme park

- The 4 As and how to scale them

- How to weave retention into all of your goals

- Cultural impediments to the CX conversation

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Buc-ee’s

- BreakoutCS

- Revenue Collective

Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog. Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for Customer Experience Podcast in your favorite podcast player.

IHAVE created what I call the as ofcustomer success, bucketing system, and it's basically four as so. It'sacquisition, activation adoption and advocacy and within those four as orall of the members of your organization, the single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast, here'syour host Eten, but if you're paying attention, you'veprobably heard some version of this several times over the past year or soretention is the new growth or retention. Is The new acquisition,those directionally? True, I don't think it's new and I'm excited to hearwhat today's guest thinks about it. Throughout her career, she is served asa customer success leader almost exclusively in the textspace she'sfounder and chief experience officer at better growth, a team that helpscompanies, accelerate revenue, growth, increase retention, drastically improveexpansion and provide world class customer experiences she's. Also, acommunity builder serving as to Portland Coach chapter head, an Lgbtqmoderator at revenue, collective and as organizer of breakout, CS, Lea Cheney,welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you! Wow, it's excitingto be here. It's always really interesting to hear people talk aboutyou, isn't it and I'm like H. I did do that yeah absolutely, especially withthe privilege of all of the hindsight atd having years of experience behindyou, which I'm really excited to get into. I think you have a really cooland unique perspective and obviously a ton of valuable experience, and so Ihave a several things I want to get into, but I want to start withretention is the new growth or the new acquisition? Obviously, when I saydirectionally true, I think it's consistent with the rise of SAS therise of CS, the rise of subscription and membership. At the same time.REPEAT: Referral expansion share of wallet these types of things have longbeen part of any healthy business, probably for centuries like what areyour thoughts when you hear something like that, yeah listen. So I think anyone whosheard me talk before I'm really passionate around certain things, andthis is one of them right. Like I've heard a lot of people say that retentions, the new hot topic- I don't think that's the case I think what'shappening- is that we're in a down economy and all of a sudden keepingmoney in the bank is really noticeable right. So it's always important. Ithink the customers that get it right find away, even in the best of economictimes, to keep retention front and Cinter make sure their customers arehappy and make sure that they're staying, but particularly right nowyeah, it's a big hot topic right like when, when the cells pipeline is not asstrong, all of the sudden keeping money in the door becomes kind of keeping thelights on yeah. What are you seeing out there? I mean you can solt a variety ofbusinesses like are we turning is that is his still kind of in the wait andsea mode? What do you think about new revenue, and obviously at varies, ofcourse, by the product or the service, but kind of at? What is the tone orfeeling out there right now? Yeah, I mean look. Some people have done reallywell in this right like if you are a software company that focused onworking from home, you probby did pretty well in this. You know pandemicand challenging economy. However, I think what I'm saying out there is thatmost people are struggling. Most people are struggling, most people really hadto cut back right and- and what's interesting to me, is I've been astartup junkie? For you know, a couple of decades now and working in startups,I've been through a recession, not a pandemic, but I've been through arecession, and I can tell you that a lot of startups are doing this for thefirst time right, and so, if you've been through it before it's like Ohyeah, this is totally where you nerture relationships. Even you know more o youask for renewal. Yes, is, like you know way in advance of what you might havebeen before. You really make sure you...

...understand what your net revenueretention is and so yeah I mean. I think, that if you haven't been throughthis right, if you're a three four five year old company, you probably gotsplashe fith some cold water. On this one, you probably made some bigmistakes. You probably lost a lot of revenue. You probably had pretty highThurn and yeah. I mean basically, I think, companies right now, becausethey cut back, have a choice on what they're spending money on and if youdidn't make sure that your customer experience was really solid. Youprobably got cut yeah and that's a it's. A greattransition point you're, one of the a handful of people who has a customerexperience title. I would assume you were able to give it to yourself and soo LD, I'm especially excited. I love asking everybody. This questiomIESPECIL, especially interested in your take when i Sey customer experience.What does that mean to Ulia yeah, so a customer experience doesn't have adefinition, because it's a movement right like I like to explain this. Ifyou go to a theme park with your kid all right- and I have an eight monthold, so I'm going to talk about parenting, a lot an lages, but if yougo to a theme park with your kid you're going to have an experience, whether ornot that theme park put any attention towards what your experience was or notright, and so the customer experience happens with your product or yourservice, regardless of your participation in that they have anexperience as they go through setting up your platform or going through yourconsultancy or whatever it is like you know it was it timely. Did people careabout me was the return on investment. There did sells, sell me something thatwas actually valuable or you know, did they just sling me into no no man'sland, and it was nothing like I signed up for right and so customer experienceand putting an attet putting attention on that or a title to that is sayingthat Hey I'm here to actually make sure that this theme park is solid and thatwhen this customer leaves they're going to want to come back love the themepark analogy. So what would you say to someone who's trying to decide whetheror not to make it a role or a team or a function or whether to carry it as likea guiding philosophy that transcends silo even in healthy culture, we getsiloe and so like. How do you because, obviously, people land successfully andpeople fail with both Attea with both directions? How do you encourage peopleto think about that yeah? I actually don't think peoplereally succeed without a focus on it. Now it doesn't have to be the title ofcustomer experience like I like, but you know going back to the analogy of.If you have a museum right and then you have someone that walks you through andexplains everything to you right, like I'm from Austin Texas, and I remembergoing to the state capital and I joined the little tour and someone talked tome through everything I was going through and if I hadn't had that personthere, I would have just been staring at a lot of old paintings and reallynice chairs and doors and been like this is cool and old. So the customerexperience guide right, like somebody WHO's dedicated to that, make sure thatthat experience is valuable, but that they're getting the most out of it andit's somebody paying attention to that as a fulltime job. If you don't havethat what inevitably happens in my opinion is that people start to createthe customers experience based on what their experience is. So, if you're, aCTO you're building a product based on what you want that product to be andnot what your customers actually using that product for or experiencing it. Isee this a lot in senior executive teams at startups. Right, like theymean well, they have a passion, an a vision and something they probablywrote on a Napkin that they put blood, sweat and tears into and haven't sleptin a year and a half when they got it off the ground right. But regardless ofwhat you started out for once, customers actually start to use it.They create their own path. And if you have somebody there, that's payingattention to that. You can really make sure that the product is growing withwhat the customers actually need and not just what you wrote down on acocktail Napkin years ago, totally fair and now what do you think about thetype of role that lends itself? Obviously, I think the most common orthe most consistent is someone comes...

...out of cs or you have a chief customerofficer that takes on or oversees this responsibility or function. Does itmatter to you where this comes from within an organization? No, I mean my favorite thing is forthere to be a customer experience committee right and it's one personfrom each of them major pillars. Because, again, I want to make surethat the people understand that there's a difference between customer success,which is a department like sales and marketing and products and customerexperience, which is a movement right, and so, ideally, you would have acustomer experience committee where somebody on product somebody oncustomer success. Somebody on sales, the CEO sit in and like talk throughthe customer experience and major companies. Do this right, like thereally successful companies like Amazon, have always done this in their own way,and then I also like to recommend that you rotate them out. I think the CEOshould always have a permanent seat in that committee, but I recommend thatyou rotate those seads out within other people within those department, soeverybody's kind of got this customer experience in their DNA right and soI'd like to think of it in my recommendations, more of a movementinternally than just a person love it any other advice around making: CX Partof company DNA, again titled Or Untitled Committee or team. However,you want to do it any other insights, because I like this idea of a crossfunctional effort dedicated to Cx, especially I, like the rotating sesdo.You have anything else. They're like just from this DNA perspective,anything else that brings it deep into how the company operates. Yeah, okay,so this is so kind of a little background about me. So you get this, II'm going to get to you to something proprietary, that I'll give away thatthat I built myself, and so I call it the as of customer service and it'sbasically an accountability, bucketing system, I think again. Not only shouldeverybody want to have customer experiences a part of the DNA, butactually everybody needs to be accountable again for the fact thatthey are a part of the customer experience and I think, often timeswhere companies fail in this. Is they put a customer success, team togetherand they put the weight of the world on the customer success team to like beresponsible for all the customers sentiment tracking, like any netpromoter scores or back to them anything else, and you know I have mybelievs on: What's good and bad about net promoter score as well, but goingback to this, you have to have accountability across the board. Sowhen you're doing ou customer experience journey map, if you willI've created what I call the as of customer success, bucketing system andit's basically four as so: it's acquisition, activation adoption andadvocacy and within those four ads or all of the members of your organization.So this way nobody's hiding behind the curtain of Oh I'm an engineer, and Iwhat what do I have to do with the customer? Well, you actually have themajority to do with he customer actually, as an engineer so again withacquisition activation adoption and advocacy. I put that into okay.Acquisition is anything that goes out the door so going back to the themepark. That's your flyers that are going out about the company, that's the thecold calls that are going in from like the sales team about you, know thecompany Etca, and so that team is going to house anyone that is responsible fortop of the funnel or your first brand image to that customer, because that'stheir first experience right and then from there they go into the activationphase. So that's your onboarding team. That's your product team! That'severyone! That's a part of getting the customer up and running your customersuccess team, probably your support team and then from there's the bigchunk of the business, the most important part, which is the adoptionphase, and this is where most companies just set up a customer and leave themand forget them right. We got months before the renewal by I'm going to gofocus on revinue. This is when your customer decides that they're stayingthis is when your customer decides t af they like you. This is when yourcustomer decides, if there's a return on a investment, and so this is themost crucial part in this adoption...

...faces everyone in your company. This iseveryone. Everyone should have something to do. scalably in this partof the customers, experience and journey, and then, finally, instead ofa renewal phase where you panic and try to get the customer to renew, if You'edone it correctly, you have what I called the advocacy pase and that'swhen you're asking that's where sales and marketing come back into yourcustomer success, an leadership team because now you're taking all the greatword of mouth, the white papers, the case studies, the referrals and you'reusing those to generate more business. So, instead of looking at this, like amap, that's flat, where you start here- and you finish here- you're actuallylooking at this like a circle, because if you do this correctly, it never endsright. It's like this renewal loop. If you will so you highlighted adoption,as probably one of the greatest opportunities for most businesses toimprove in general. I know that is going to be variable by business, butin general, are you talking like first ninety days or are you talking aboutlike like what is this adoption window and maybe what are a few keys tosuccess here? It's everywhere after the onboarding experience, and I think thata lot of people, and so it depends, some people are up and running withinten minutes of starting your platform. Other people are, you know, sixty thanninety days, if you've got a really complicated API connection right and so,whatever your onboarding Phaseis, which I call that activation phase. It'severything else. It's everything after that up until you've said Yes to yourrenewal, is your adoption phace? And so that's your you know, first day ofbeing up and running through your renewal, is the oduction face? The onething I really like about the four as, of course, is that it maps the entireit accounts for the entire customer life cycle from the first touch throughhealthy year's long relationship, where you have doubler triple the commitmentas the initial commitment years ago. In the and all of this, it's one of thethings that's the most exciting to me about customer experience, and oneofther reasons, I'm so glad I have the privilege of hosting this podcast isthat I think that that is how everyone should be thinking, something that Ithink has been similar similar in its how popular it's become is the cro role. One of the things I like about the CROrole is that it accounts, for you know it's not just someone overseeing kindof sales or sales and marketing and this acquisition piece and then we'lllet the CS team figure it out. It's jis idea that revenue takes a more holisticview of revenue, Kinto the way CX and the four ays take a holistic view ofthe customer experience in the customer journey. Any thoughts on the parallelsthere between Cro or any cautions or any hot, takes or opinions yeah, no,absolutely and clug to revenue, collective WHO's, doing a cro schoolright. Now, Sam Jacobs and their team. There came to me to lead the customersuccess. Part of that, and I found a great partner to partner with me ondoing that because Cro, you know, the the chief revenue officer is so pivotalto the customer experience right, and so I actually do think there's a lot ofparallel, I'm seeing more and more that companies are aligning customer successlike a like to go up to it as cro, and then you know- and I don't know how Ifeel about that- I mean like. Ideally you would have a customer, a chiefexperience officer right that that would report to, but the CRO is a hugepart of it, regardless of customer. Success is reporting to this person ornot, and so I think that what it really showcases is that forthe customer experience, if you put in the time to build a customer experience,you can expect that to generate revenue for you right like it, should have alarge large large seat at the revenue table right. Your customer success teamhas a has a seat at the revenue table if you're doing it correctly, wherethey're getting renewals and expansions and referrals and the customerexperience is what's making all that...

...happen, because if it's a good customerexperience, they're going to spend more money with you right and one of myleast favorite things that I see is people especially the old schoolmentality of customer success being wel. We don't want to ask the customer formoney, we're friends, we have a relationship. Well, if you've done yourproduct right, if you've got your feedback and you've digested it anddone something with it, then you're doing your customer favor by sellingthem more because your product is evolved to help them make more right,so they're putting ten dollars in and getting a hundred out based on whatyour product is doing for them. So the customer experience being strong acrossthe board makes that really easy to tea up for a customer success person or asales individual. If your organization has sales that takes on expansionopportunities, it's not my favorite, but if you do that good for you rightand so yeah, I mean I've more than answered question. I think, based on myopinion, so one of the cautions I feel like that, I inferred from what yousaid is that you know revenue is a reflection of agreat experience. I think outcomes obviously have a role to play there too,but that there's more to the experience than just revenue and if we use revenueas the proxy for a good experience that we might be missing. Something did Iinfer that fairly? Is there something there yeah? Absolutely I mean listen.The experience is also what's going to bring you word of mouth marketing rightand so, depending on, regardless, if you're a baby startup that wants sobadly to have the first big logo to if you're a huge you know fortune fiftycompany, you want a good experience to happen for people to speak well of youright, and so I think it's beyond revenue, because it's your brand, it'slike you know we spend so much time. Thinking about what our logo looks likeand what our color looks like. I was just bragging about how I love you guys.You know, like your website right, we put so much thought into those things,but we don't put hardly any thought into what the experiencis for theenuser and how they're going to talk about us right, and so yes, I think itgoes beyond revenue, because it is also what people feel and what the actualtangible brand image is of you beyond just smoking mirrors, and you know if peoplepaid more money, it's what's really going to be solid about you. It is whatis going to get you through a difficult economy right like if everyone knowsthat your company has this amazing customer experience and that they get alot of Ri on it and that people care about them like that's, not easy to cutback right. So when you're trimming the fat of your text stack you're, probablynot going to trim that one yeah. The feelings is such a key word. I don'tthink we use it often enough. I think one of the reasons that it's difficultto measure surveys get at it Kindof. I will not te you up for a go at NPSthere, but but I love that you use the word feelings there and I completelyagree it's that it's foundational to kind of an assumed. Yes, I means youknow we make so many decisions subconsciously, and so much of that isemotionally driven, and so, when we have positive positive impressionsformed by positive experiences, we say positive things to other people about abrand or a company. It further reinforces our positive position,because now we've expressed it outwardly to other people. I thinkfeelings are often overlooked. Let's go really really practical here to speakto the sales people and the marketing people. What can we be doing in theacquisition bucket to kind of go back to the? For, as what can we be doing inthe acquisition bucket to improve retention? Tell the truth?Don't over Andplaye, it that's the biggest thing ICAN and it's and it'susually not even on purpose right like you'll. have these brilliantly talentedmarketers that are just siloe right by not et no fault tof, their own silosare from leadership they're, not from departments. Leadership Creates Silosand if you have silo departments- and you have beautiful collateral going inbut it doesn't sell you correctly, then...

...it's a huge challenge for sales and CS,and so you know, I think one of the things to really keep in mind is thatthat team, if there's a committee going back to that and you're talking about,what's really going out there and using that an analogy again of like themeparks if you're putting out into you, know the Internet. You know the worldthat you're going to get an experience that you're not then when the customergets there, they realize that and during that adoption, Pase Er mad aboutit. So the first thing you can do in that acquisition phasis make sure thatyour collateral is truthful, that it's detailed, some of my favorites evenspeaks to what they're not this is what we're not right, and so then, when theydo get handed over to the activation phase and beyond the ready to go- andyou know that includes YOURSCR teams. Like often times people are trying tohit numbers from phone calls and they'll say anything, they'll sayanything and I feel for them, but they'll say anything to get the personto sign to hit their quota to hit their number and it never works out good, soagain be truthful. That is the number one thing an acquisition and to betruthful. You have to really understand what it is that you sell, not just howto make it look good or sound good. Yes, so much good stuff there. I reallylike this idea of expectation management from the GETGO. I feel anthat's my language for it, I think disappointment is a function ofexpectation, and so this idea of seeing what needs to be said to make what youwant to have happene happen is incredibly dangerous for a variety ofreasons, mostly that it sets up Wel, Ey, there's an integrity issue but B.There's a this, also false expectations that you're setting up and then you'rejust taut kind of tossing it over the fence for someone else to clean up andfigure out later on, drastically improving expansion. I forget whether Igot that language from Linkin or from the better growth website, but as soonas I read it, I was like that is probably a really huge opportunity formost companies. Why do you a I assume, you're familiar with the use of thisword drastically in this context? Why that word choice and what are a fewways that you help people and advise people to drastically improve expansion? Yeah Imean the first thing is. I can't believe you know how many times e comein as a consultant. You know that's what I'm called for right, like usuallywith better growth, a company that I own, a CEO or a senior executive, reachesout to me and says we have a problem with our with our revenue generation.There's something broken with our customers experience. You know we wantto be better in these areas, and you know nine times out of ten. The firstthing I realize for areas that they can improve. It is that they don't have agame plan like you would have a sales playbook for expansion and there's somuch money left on the table. I can't I can't even begin to tell you like tenout of ten times I go into a company, there's so much money being left on thetable from being afraid to ask for expansion for not understanding how toget to a Yes for expansion. Again we're putting this a lot of times on, like acustomer success manager, but not giving them any tools right. They justget the gest they're going to do this, not like hey, soone, Sois, coming uppor enewal. How do we get them to go? You know beyond where they are today.How do we have goals like a sales would to have like expansion, be its ownquota even right, like a percentage of business that grows, and so, if you doit correctly, if your product is strong, if you've been building and improving aproduct based on customers, sfeedback and based on what customers need, thenyou will rastically hit expansion numbers often times again, I go into acompany and they've got. Expansion is like ten percent of the revenue targetwhen done correctly. That should be more like thirty or forty percent,thirty or forty percent for a company that has built their base. Customersright like if you're still in like land grab mode, get your first customers.You could still have a playbook. You can still be getting. You know, thirtyto forty percent of that, but really...

...once you've established yourself.That's like a goal that you have going forard and the way you do that is youcreate a playbook and you go and you have mile stones to check to make surethat they're utilizing what they have today right, because if I go to you andI'm like Hey, I want you to spend more money. But really you haven't likelet's take a gym membership right, like we all have had these before right,like if I have a gym membership and I'm never going to the gym because it'shard to go to the gym. And then you come to me and are like hey. I want youto buy the swimming package, I'm going to be like. I don't even go to the gymright, but if you make sure that they are going to the gym, if you're givingthem a good experience, if you're checking in on them, if you're givingthem benchmark data, if you're, showing them ore, other customers a making alot of money on putting an extra effort and then they start utilizing whatthey're paying for they're, probably going to add that extra to it right,and so it's creating the playbook for expansion. Just like you would salesdoyou. Nobody does nothing. You know I'm thinking about lead scoring on onthe acquisition side. Are you seeing anyone doing some kind of like a rollup kind of a early indicator that this is ripe for expansion or for theexpansion? Opportunitymy, like to your point, with the gym thing, thisboxeschecked this boxes check this box is checked. We should talk to them aboutthe swimming package. Are you seeing companies do something similar to I'musing lead scoring and I'm air coting for those of you who are listening? Doyou see people using some kind of a lead scoring mechanism to have theseconversations at the right time with the right people yeah, so the they're using customer sentiment todecide if they should and that's where they're failing right, they're usingNPS or five star ratings, or thumb up thumb down to be like? Oh, they want toexpand then, and that's not what it's good for right, like customer sentiment,has its place. It is a it's like getting an oil change for your car.There's other stuff. You have to do you, don't just get an oil change right. Yougot to make sure your tires are filled. You got O check on your engine. You gotto do other stuff. People are using NPS or customer centiment like the NorthStar. So that's where the challenge is because they're saying Oh, these arepromoters. Therefore they will expand and that's not the case. I mean that's,why I say the NPS is a vanity metric because really they're, saying hey,they like their CSM or something's good and that's great put it on the wall.Weve got a ten, that's awesome, but what gets down to the nitty gritty isone who said that who gave him the tent. Was it a decision maker that actually,like you know, can write a check and that's where I feel like to getsomething back from your customer like more money, you have to give themsomething. First, so going back to this old school, quarterly business reviewsome kind of report that lets the customer know where they stand comparedto others. Lets them know what they're doing well and what they're not- andyou know that is the meat of and making sure that the right people are in thosequarterly business reviews. So decision makers are in there, not just on theday that you're asking them for more money and then, in addition to that,your health metric should always include. U Usage. So, however, yourproduct or Serviceis is the customer using it or they logging in or theyusing it more right like going back to the gym membership. Maybe, like youknow at first you're, trying to get the customer to show up twice a week Bulonce they start doing that. How do you get the customer shop three times aweek right so making sure that that usage is growing into like the ninetypercent of what they can do with it range? And then you ask them forexpansion, love it, and I saw a stat. I don't know how long ago, probably sixor eight months ago that that typical product adoption is something more likethe thirty thirty percent range which Tup, which is its own a Wen. Have youseen or heard something like that yeah? I think I think that that's really so.I think I heard thirty forty percent myself and it's and that's if you'relucky right. I think a lot of people too right. We've got these fremiumthings where people give something away for free, which is Great. I don't havea problem with that as long as you have a way to make sure people are using itbecause, like again, I'm going to go to the gym analogy, because I have notbeen in over a year. I do have a...

Pelaton which I enjoy, but if you're,if I'm going to the gym and I get or if I'm looking at a gym- and I get a fiveweek five day- free pass right. If I don't go during that five days and thenit expires, it did nothing to convert me right, and so instead, if I was toget a five day pass that only counted on the days I went and there was aperiod of time to use it, and it came with a coach and that coach checked inon me and was like hey I'll, see it at ten o'clock. If they put that kind ofinitiativeiden and I went, then I would probably convert into a full gym.Membership right and so same thing goes with usage. If you're giving away theproduct for a limit amount of time, that is a pivotal window to make surethat people are using it. So how do you do that? It scale? What kind ofinformation can you give them where they start getting our alie during thatfree period? You know, yeah, we have a. We have a lot of fremium in our spaceand it's been a really interesting challenge. I think a lot of people youknow without without proper support, without any kind of limitations at all.It's just free forever. Up to you know, maybe some x amount of Eusgurbatever alot of people feel like they check the box, like I tried that before it justdidn't, really work for me or work for us when, in fact it was you know it'sso easy to start, there's no, you have nothing invested in it at all, and yetyou still feel like you checkd the box, even though you made nothing of it, youprobably didn't fully adopt it or even partially, adopt I see like they'reburning fields before the craps have been harvested, which is really kind ofpartly it's fun to clean up, because we're pretty adept at working withpeople very directly to map use cases into how to use video messages and whenand wear, and what teams and how often- and you know, taking things that areworking for them now and making them better or taking things that areweatnesses and using video to help kind of filling the gap. So it's fun, butit's also it like. There's an emotional and a mental challenge there to helppeople overcome it. Yeah. When I was thinking about that thirty percentadoption, I could see problems in threeof. The four buckets, with theexception, of course, of advocacy- I could see it being potentiallymischaracterized or the on boarding- is not very good or you know the adoptionphase, ere's, not enough vigilance or attentiveness there to support peopleinto making sure they fully adopt. I could see a number of ways that productadoption could be very, very low, high level here in general, you know you're,obviously highly engaged in the community again through the work thatyou do consulting companies through your work with revenue collectivethrough breakout CS. What are a few key like mindsets or habits that you'reobserving out there that hold people back from successfully being holisticabout? You know the CX and Cro conversation that we've been havingwhat are a few things that are like cultural impediments, things that havebeen normalized over the years that need to go away. What do you wish wouldchange more quickly and more often? Well, you than I'm really glad you askethat, because, in my experience, part of why I created my own business as Iwanted to work for customer experience, it scale to help customers do this atscale to help companies rather do this at scale. I had, you know, been astartup junkie. I had started so many customer success. Teams grew them, andI got to a point where I was just like once it worked. I was bored and Iwanted to do this across. You know multiple companies, but there was alsosomething that always got in the way, and that was the co or the head. You know executive teamand even the board right. Everybody talks about the customer, but so fewcompanies, even the one whose product is all around customers, actually putin the time. You cannot have a successful customer experienceinitiative in your company if the CO is not bought in and if she or he does notactually believe it, they have to be front and center on that committee,they have to be really wanting. It be on an NPS scoreon the wall. Beyond just saying hearing...

...from their customers that they're likedbeyond your gtwo ratings, you have to actually care about what that customerexperiences from the moment they talk to somebody in your acquisition teamuntil they decide to renew or leave you like. Even when you've worked hard inaccustomers left, you that's valuable data to go and get in a post mortomomwhy they left you and the right CEO. She knows that she hears that. Shebelieves that, and she does something about that and to be successful andthat's why I only at this point in my career. I only work with companies thatactually believe that that they want this. They might not be there today,but this is their vision is that the customer actually is valued, and Ican't say that enough. If you work for a company where your CEO doesn't get itleave, there's great jobs out there hit me up on linked. I don't help you findone like don't work for a company that doesn't actually care about thecustomer experience, because inevitably they will fail, they will fail. I'veseen it happen time and time again. In my career so again like I said, I'mreally passionate about that, but you can't do it without your CEO can'. Do it yeah it just like, because it's sofundamental? I think I think- and I also think I'm taking this from other reading- thatisn't specifically about Sass or really even specifically about business, butthere's something about leadership roles that reduces empathy, because itcreates greater distance from the front lines so to speak, and I feel likethat's probably where some of the humanity is lost and some of theempathy is lost. Is that distance from the actual front lines where people aretrying to figure out how to solve a problem or people are trying to figureout how to make things work and that type of thing? What d you say thatthat's is this true in your experience andeven here's a member of the show, undercover boss? If you CEO listeningto this, I want you to go and want you to start with your acquisition team. Iwant you to start with an SDR and I want you to sit in theire chair for aday, and I want you to do thet outreach. I want you to sit and be a support repfor the day, like a CEO that actually sits through and understands thesedifferent customer experience points like what better use of your time thanto go through and sit down and be each one of these frontline representatives.That is supporting you not to show them how smart you are, but to feel theirpain. What barriers are in their way for giving a great customer experience?Are they under staffed, maybe ther their leader keeps on come up to? Ineed more support reps, but like actually sitting there and feeling itand understanding it like that, is that's free, like you just do I mean Iknow your times money but, like I just can't think of a better do super time.So yeah, yes to everything, you're saying and there's easy solutions putyourself in every position within the company for a day whatever andunderstand what their challenges are. That might be giving the customerexperience and then understand what your customer is experiencing when theyinterface with these different departments and TA members. I love that recommendation. I thinkthat this I mean not o. You said something like not to show how smartyou are. I think, if anything, the one of the main reasons- people don't do itlike one of the excuses they probably excuses aside. I think one of the realkind of motivating factors to avoid it is to is to avoid the discomfort of starting to understand what you don'tunderstand and having to face how difficult that work is and that youmight not, even though you probably sat in a similar seat years ago, dependingon the age or the maturity of the company, you know every every earlystage, person Weres, multiple hats- I mean our two cofounders one of themtook E, was making every single sales call for at least a year and the otherone was taking. Every single support call for at least a year and beyondit's funny. Our CMO, who we recruited to come to us, was a customer before hewas our CMO and he remembers calling...

...the company once with a problem, and itwas like, is this contor it got is like yeah. It is, you know you get and it'sso funny, because you want to put that impression on it. You're biger than youare at least we did at the time, but there's no better way to trulyunderstand the customer and the challenges of delivering for them thansitting in the seat. Such a good recommendation. Anything else here.Like we've, had this conversation, we stillhave a little bit more to go. Is there anything that you would that at youfeel like belongs here, that you would just like to share yeah I mean I justwant to firk some clarity on some of this. So let me tell you what it's notlike a CEO get involved. What we're talking about what it's not is themgoing to the customer and say you know basically dropping the leadership thingof I see that you've been upset or ch talk to me about it, like being thehero right, say or team up to be that I'm saying to actually get in on theground and to your point, a lot of CEOS start this way they do their ownsupport. They do their own calls, but then they totally disengage in theworld goes on and they're still in their experience, winkdow of what theirproduct is or what their business is, and it's evolved over here and they'relike in the dark ages of like the Napkin days and what you know. So whatit is, is it's going back to that ethen, it's going back and just dropping inand, like imagine imagine if, like you're getting tickets to the DallasMavericks and Mark Cuban pops on, and it's like, Heylea God you're gettingthese seats suck, you should try these seats like first, I would pass outbecause I'm a huge fan, but like there's nothing wrong with, like a fewcustomer like what a great experience that the CEO is there answering theirquestion and, if they're afraid that it makes them look small then answer it.I'm doing this because I care about your experience, and this is a this- isa check, I'm doing a check to make sure that we're doing this right right, andso I just want to clarify that, because I think what happens a lot is that costhink they're doing a grand thing when they like go solve a problem reallyyou're just throwing the team under the bus and making the customer feel likeyou know they couldn't they couldn't handle that that's not the same thingas getting on the front line with different teams to understand theexperience yeah. I think it makes me think AF, two key words, curiosityhumility, taking on this exercise from a position of humility and curiositylike I know that I don't know what I don't know so, I'm Goinna go see what Icould find out. I love it. I know that I don't know what I don't know. I MEAhaving CEO say that I love it. I think that's fantastic and I do want to saythere's some great cos out there. I have one at better grove. You knowthere are amazing CEOS out there. So this isn't a dog on the CEO. This is just don't forget what you started.Don't don't get too big or stressed that you can't see the forest for the treesanymore. So good I've enjoyed this conversation and if you are listeningat this point, I know that you have to because you're with us right now so into recommend two other episodes that reminded me of this a little bit. Oneis episode, one, sixteen with Lauren Colbertson. She is also a founder, acofounder and CEO at loop VOC, and we called that one closing both loops withvoice of the customer. So we talked a lot about different ways to bring thevoice of the customer into Your Business in an actionable way, not justin a look at this score. It's gone up in a week which, as a fantasticconversation, episode ne sixteen with Lauren Colbertson and then a little bitearlier on episode. Ninety nine, with eand luck, VP of global marketing. Atcustomer gauge, we called that three ways: CX programs go wrong and write,and we talked a lot about account, sentiment, customer sentiment andaccount sentiment as a as an important thing to keep keep an eye on and to actagainst, so episodes hned and sixteen an episode, Ninety nine or two othersyou might enjoy Lea before I let you go, I would love to know if there's aperson that you would like to thank for a positive impact on your life for yourcareer. I've got a lot of people that fit that, but I want to talk about agroup right now so break out CS. You...

...mentioned it's, not my community. It'snot owned by anyone. It's a collective collaborative, safe space per customersuccess leaders to talk to other customer success leaders. This issomething that I stumbled on, because I saw a problem and I was just trying toget a group of people together to like talk through it and we had over twohundred CS leaders that were having the same problem show up for a zoom callright and I was like it was one of the most amazing days of my life like tojust have that kind of collaboration. I said nothing. I was a student, Ilearned and that's not easy for me, but I listend through the whole thing, and-and I couldn't let it go after that so breakout CS- is it's a collaborativecommunity for CS leaders? It's free! It's a great space to just talk throughideas. It's a safe space, it's super inclusive and then, in addition to that,you know, I just want to give a shout out to all the members of the LGBT Qiaicommunity, because it's not gay pride and I don't think we getshoutouts enough. You know when it's not that month. So I just want to saythat, like you know, it's an underrepresented part of Zass and keepdoing your thing. One of the things I do is I volunteer my time any membersof my community that need help with the resume hetme up on Linkdon, I'm alwayshappy to look over and to continue to get more members of our community intocustomer success as well as other. You know, pivotal parts of those as withinassass organization, love it and for folks who ere listening. It's Lea LeahCheney, Cha Ney! You can find her on linked in. I did I'm glad that I didand she is very sincere about these offers. So you should reach out andalso again, it's breakout CS, how about a brand or a company that you respectto appreciate for the experience they deliver for you as a customer, allright, so I'm from the South and there is a company called Buckies and Ialways use them. EG Is an example for customer experience. They have thecleanest bathrooms and I am telling you that's one of those small things rightthat people don't think about, but growing up as a kid. I remember wewould go out of our way to go to a buckist because of their cleanbathrooms, and I really feel like that is a is a great example of putting thecustomer first right. Like you know, in theory, when they were creating thisclean bathroom movement, they weren't going to make more money by spendingmore money on cleaning and making sure that that happened. But then they did.Revenue came because people went out of their way to go there for their cleanrestroams, and so I know that' silly and it you know it might seem crazy,but buckies out in the south, if you're ever driving through Texas, Youredriving through Austin just outside of their all the way up to where I am inSouth Carolina, there's plenty of places that you can stop over andexperience exactly what I'm talking about so yeah. So smart. I really like this idea. Ihave to imagine that there's a halo effect to having clean bathrooms.Besides, you know we're going to go, seek it out to me. The Halo effect iseven broader than that in results in that, and that it's, if they're takingcare of that, they must be taking care of everything else. You know becausebeen in otherwise nice places if you go in the bathroom like I don't know aboutthis place, that's awesome. I love that reference. I always said I love to shopplaces that pay their employees well, thereare, another one that likeshowcases their employ wages publicly. So you know what people are being paidif people are being taken care of. You can't have great customer experiencewithout great employees, and you can't have great employees without caringabout them, because the great ones leave so yeah. I think it's full circle.Absolutely true. That's been an ongoing theme from almost the beginning of thispodcast, which is now more than two years ago h. The relationship betweenemployee experience, ind customer experience lea this has been awesome. Ienjoyed it so much. I appreciate you spending time with us. We alreadymentioned that they can connect with you on linked in. But where else wouldyou send people to learn more about you or about better growth or aboutbreakout cs or any anything else you like to share with people? Where wouldyou send them yeah? Well, if you go to...

...better Growthcom, if you are a companywith a leadership team that believes in customers, we love to work with you,you can also go to break out CSCOM and we have a community there. We use aplatform called circle so as an actual community, we meet up once a month tohave these breakout sessions and converse with other CS leaders. There'sno pitching! There's nobody talking at you. It's literally like here's, thetopics we want to discuss. You go into rooms that are digestible, so we breakout the rooms. We have moderators that help the conversations keep running,we're badging everybody you're, a founding member of breakout, cs up tofive hundred and we're growing like quite a bit every day, so so get on inthere to get that badge and then also unlinked in, like I said, if an even Ijust want to take a second to say, I'm a huge fan of yours. So I think you forhaving me on this show, like. I think you are one of those people, that'sreally making a difference by keeping this stuff front and center. So youknow I appreciate all the shoutouts to me, but I would like to give a shoutout back to you. I like what Bom bomb is up to you, and I had a greatconversation before this got started about how these videos would befantastic for customer success scaling some of those customers that they can'ttalk to every day if their client load is too high. So just want to turn thatshout out back on what all you are up to, because it's really cool to watch.Think so much it's a privilege. Those ae very kind of words, and I appreciateit and we round all this stuff up at bombamcomsh podcast, we drop in a fewvideo clips and all the things that we reference to here, including breakout,CS, better growth, Buckies I'll, find them and put it like them up to it'sall AF bobocom, slsh podcast, I appreciately. I hope you have anawesome afternoon. I appreciate you spending time with us. Thank you somuch. I really appreciate it clear communication, human connection,higher conversion. These are just some of the benefits of adding video to themessages your sending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance,so pick up the official book, Rehumanize Your Business, how personalvideos, accelerate sales and improve customer experience learn more in ordertoday at Bombamcom Fock, that's Bo, MB bombcom book. Thanks for listening tothe customer experience. PODCAST remember. The single most importantthing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for yourcustomers, continue. Learning the latest strategies and tactics bysubscribing right now in your favorite podcast player, or visit Bombomcompodcast.

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