The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 147 · 4 months ago

147. The 7 Pillars of Customer Success w/ Wayne McCulloch


The role of customer success is to build value on the promise of what the customer became a customer in the first place. Being so deeply invested in the customer’s journey, CS must become more than trusted. It must become strategic.

Joining me on this episode is Wayne McCulloch, Global Head of Customer Success at Google Cloud (Saas) and author of The Seven Pillars of Customer Success, to talk about the relationship between CS and CX:

Wayne and I also discussed:

- How there were 5-12 pillars in the beginning of the book

- What the 7 pillars are, including strategic advisor

- Why CS is similar to both parents and police

- How a 1940s movie perfectly illustrates CS

- Why you should use a 3rd party for customer exit interviews

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Wayne McCulloch on LinkedIn

- Customer Success Pillars

- Tom Hogan on LinkedIn

- Maria Martinez on LinkedIn


Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

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The realities, i think we need to bemore than trusted. We need to be strategy. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast, here'syour host ethan, but the seven pillars of customer success. Now we may not beable to go deep on all of them today, but were joined by the gentlemen whodefined those pillars and wrote the book on them. He served his head ofglobal education services at companies like ibm, an h, p, n er price. He spentthree years as a senior vp in the customer success group at sales force.He served his executive, vp and chief customer officer at coney and as vp ofthe global customer success group at looker when they were acquired bygoogle cloud for two point: seven billion today, his global head ofcustomer success for google clouds, entire sass portfolio and, as imentioned off the top author of the seven pillars of customer success waynemc callico, welcome to the customer experience podcast thanks ethan. Ithink that's about all the time we have for today. So thank true. I'vecertainly done a lot of things when i was listening to it, but it's great tobe inside cool yeah. I guess i could have bottom line and said this guy hasbeen a an education and cs executive in a number of fantastic organizations.Next, okay, so all all right, let's get moving and we'll get moving on customerexperience to start when i say that wayne, what does it mean to youcustomer experience or to me really just means it's? What's the perceptionof your brain in a customers, mind and the reason why it sounds really obvious,of course, but the reason why it's really important is because we, whenwe're a part of the brand, we have a very, very strong idea. What how parantmessage is what our value propers is like? We love it, we breathe it, butthe reality is: when a customer consumes that experience, they willfall in their opinion, and that is customer experience to me. Whateverthey perceive your brand to be, is the customer experience really good? It isdefinitely owned by the customer more than it is by us. I think you caninfluence it. I think we have aspirations for it, but it really comesthrough execution. What's left with the customer, a couple follow ups here,just because of your background, in your view, like what is therelationship with customer experience, customer success and perhaps even tocustomer journey, i think all these words are used sometimes they'remisused, sometimes they're used to almost interchangeably like how do youpeel those apart yeah. So, as i said, the customer experience is a perceptionof the customers. That's all about what the customer believes. The customerjourney should be a representation of the customers, experience with you ason their journey to creating those perceptions, but more often than not webuild from the lens of our cell. We build the journey, evolve. There's animplementation, there's adoption this a renewal it and that's our view of thejune at's, not a customer journey, that's our operational view, but if weactually, let me out o this question, how many people who do a customerjourney have their customers come in to help them build it? Hardly any that iknow they all bring in experts and console is ter, which is great, butthey always forget the customer peace of the customer jerney, which is weirdnow customer success, is a really interesting one and something that iwish i'm going to write a book on this one day, because people have got itwrong. People create late, they hire these customer success managers andthen they say: here's my customer success, department and they've alreadybe already lost like because that is not your customer success department.Your customer success department is every function that works with acustomer after the first transaction is closed once at new lover becomes partof your organization. The teams that take that that is what customer successis it's the customer facing organizations that are responsible tousher, that customer along the journey you've created to create a c x or acustomer experience perception in your customers, mind and we get it wrongbecause we created apartment, call customer success. Instead of thinkingof that, all these organizations is what customer success is. It's reallyinteresting. It gets to an interesting tension that we talk about often on theshow more in customer experience than in customer success, but i think itapplies in both, which is you know, the kind of the role title function,dynamic versus the ethos or the culture or the you know, overall, pervasiveguiding philosophy like give any thoughts on that that divide or thatchallenge i mean because as soon as you put a name on a person or a team, itstarts to silo a little bit. But the whole goal here is to create like unityand align ment yeah, absolutely so he's.

What's really fascinating. Peoplealways referred to or sales horse kind of invented the cm right. They createdthis new model of how to buy software through a subscription and it'sdelivered through the web, and it's like there's all this amazing change,and so sal fors created it, and so they created an organization that everycompany today is trying to mimi. So they build a customer success function,but what's really strange and what people don't understand is there is nocustomer success, team of css, it sells hot and then it the new as ben. It'sactually sales horse calls all of that poises sale organization, the customersuccess group c sg, and they do that because customers succiss is a group ofpeople, the group of organizations, it's not a department, it is a suitorfunction, so it is a philosophy for the whole company, but let's face it, saleshas to go. Get new logos. Marketing has to go market, the brand finance as toprocess the account, but the customer success group is just manical focusedon the customer, and so the group of css live inside an organization calledc fl customers for life, but every other company that at least i'm awareof they create a customer success group with cans and that totally pigeon holes.The fact that, oh, you won't success, we own services, and so we have revenuemargin and utilization which are all internal operational metrics. Nothingabout the customer. We own support, which is okay, ticket deflection, sortof again operation or metrics, and and ultimately, they missed. The pointwhich is customer success is a group of organizations and functions that haveto come together for the customers journey with you, and i feel, likethat's kind of lost in the the people are just so quick to say. Oh yeah, wehave a customer success, tea check the box they're not really embracing thenotion of customers, success that drives the experience to theircustomers, yeah, if you could just the essence of it like in a line. What isthat like? What is that group trying to do? I mean obviously it's to from thecompany's perspective it's to create a customer for life. I love the name ofthat that of division, because that is the goal. But what would you say aboutcustomer success like in a line or like what is what is the very essence of it?Yeah? Well: okay, if you had to boil it down to asentence or something it's it's really to deliver on the value and the promiseof why that customer became a customer of our organization. That's that's allit's about. If we can, if it customer trusts us to deliver a certain outcomeand value or then we have to deliver that, and if we can deliver more and wecan expand on that, then that's awesome and a customer as loves us for it. Butultimately that's that's all it's about, but it's almost too simplistic to boilit down to that because sure cut different customers and differentenvironments and different products and different markets, there's so manynuances. But ultimately that's the only thing that matters. So people talk tome about well, we've got to make customers just fanatically happy withus. Well, i know a lot of happy customers that left. I know a lot ofunhappy customers that stay. So to me, that's not the north star, the northstar is. Are we delivering on what they need is to deliver? What we promise todeliver and ultimately can we create more value for that customer thatbuilds a relationship that it's nice to go on a date or two or three or four,but we want to get married like we want to be together forever and that'sreally the essence of customer success. Yeah really well done, and i doappreciate that sensitivity to getting to the outcome before. We really worryabout the surprise and delight elements before we dive into the pillars whichi'm excited to do. I've got what i hope will maybe turn out to be like a littlebit of a lightning round thing were all introduced, an idea i thought wasinteresting and you kind of share. You know a few thoughts on it, but beforewe do tell us a little bit about your role with google cloud like what aresome of the main objectives of you and your team like what is a good day or aweek or a month or a quarter, look like for you yeah. I think the really uniqueaspect of being a google is. I have the opportunity personally so a careerperspective. I get to operate at a scale, not many people in the world getto do so. That's kind of corro, so you think about. Oh, i was at sales for tmean that hundreds of thousands of customers and people are like that'samazing. Well, i'm a google and one of my products has seven point: onemillion paying customs. You know, like that's a scale that people can't whenyou talking about all o. How many css do you have on that on that productyou're like well? I certainly don't have a million of them and have awonder, seven ratio, but so for me it's the ability for google to touch so manypeople, and i'm talking specifically about the workspace product right andit has. Billions of users will wide, including the free version like usegmail, for example, you're using workspace right. So i get anopportunity to think of success at a scale that may beb to c. Companiestypically will get to deal with and...

...they have much bigger ones potentiallywell. Actually, i can't think of many that would have more than a couple ofbillion users, but it's more of a be to see think the mindset, if you will,which is fascinating for me personally, and also an amazing opportunity forgoogle who is so strong on the beat of be world with google cloud and some ofthe amazing products there, but they have this product that just transcendsbe to be and and so for me, it's exciting to be able to work in both. Soi have products like apergy, chronicle and looker as a data platform andthat's a traditional b o v kind of play. But then you have work space, which isa bet o b play, but it has a b tc element, that's exciting for me as asuccess leader awesome just really quickly: education services. Now that'sin a professional context. I'm not personally familiar with that as atitle, especially as an executive title. Is it about customer education and then,of course, does that build the link between education services and customersuccess in terms of your personal career yeah. Absolutely so back in theo- s like, oh, i say, lack in the day fifteen years ago, and then i'm likewell, okay, that's more than that. So back in the nine is a join a comingcalled people soft, which was fairly new back then, and i joined in theeducation department. So it's really teaching people how to use it. Butthat's where that's where i started to. Essentially i was starting my customersuccess journey before it existed as a profession which was heading it peopleto adopt your technology and get value from it and ultimately, today, customer success is very much motivatedaround. How do i get pony now that i get value so that we can get aretention sort of play going and maybe expansive value cell sible licensesexpanding use cases whatever it is and so yeah it was really around training,certification, adoption things like that, and what i realized is. This isone component of a much bigger journey that we need to be conscious of, and soi may well as a sales for us work for a lady called maria martinez, which justphenomenal amazing leader and just customer centricity, and she went to doa similar roll over it's discussional le c o. Let's just go bit, she for memotivated me to start thinking more broadly than just this adoptioncomponent and think of the entire customer journey in to end, and that'swhen i transitioned into more of a chief customer officer, a gross acrossall the post for sale functions, so i could actually influence and think ofhow does our brand operate along the journey rather than just this one piece,and that was the transition for me. Yeah really good and i yeah maria. Iinterviewed two people that work for her now at cisco, steve cox andchristiern lis, and they both speak very, very highly of her and, in fact,steve. I think just took on an ex title, which is as progressive as you know,telling someone like you early earlier in your career to think about the wholelife cycle, not just about adoption, really awesome. I love the the legacythat people can leave through their career in the lives that they affect.Let's get into the seven pillars of customer success before we get into it.I just want to say for listeners. I highly recommend this. It's loaded withframeworks like the ten tools for cs the five rolls of cs. It's got modelstables other like systematic visualizations. It's heavy weight, it'slike over three hundred pages, and yet it's fun to read and even easy to kindof like pick up and set down as needed again, because it's so well organizedand packaged, and it's based on wayne's extensive experience, but he also callsin like tons of other people, so they're like break out boxes and rereally, even like inline inset stories and perspective, so highly recommendedwain. Why don't you share? Maybe your motivation for writing it in the firstplace, because it's no small undertaking and you're not a less thanbusy person and then we'll, maybe just quickly do a drive by on the sevenpillars yeah so permitting my career, like many peoplecoming in it's a new profession, so a lot of people coming in from they'renot born in the cs world. I mean it's more so today people are graduating asa great sort of nba sort of program out university of san francisco. That bjruns there that that you know is minting these ces professionals earlyin the career. But most people are in my experience and background sort ofmigrating, and what i did is i realized that customer success for me was reallyconfusing. So i read the book that everyone reads: customer success sonick meton time and licami, and it's great about explaining why thisfunction exists and why it's necessary. What's so critical and important, themetrics and all this stuff and there's a bunch of other programs that teachpeople, certifications and train a being a great cs. You can there'sseveral different types of c sm, certifications now, which is a littleconfusing, but great, like i can be a great cen, but there's this thingmissing in the middle, because i was listening to the thought, leaders andbest practices and in deploying them and then the fail and i'm like. What'sw what's happening, i'm i go follow the...

...rules. It's told me to do this and whati recognized was what was missing is a framework as a customer successorganization. This is what's really unique about something new is everyoneyou talk to. She says well, cs is still maturing and over here it's a fivefighting process over here, it's more of a support process over here. It's aselling process eye quota. Oh it's all different everywhere you go and i'mlike. Well, you know why that is it's because we're super nice, empatheticpeople, and so when people say i got a problem to fix it like go pon that gapand we're saying yes, because there's no framework of what cis is so it kindof has become this catchall like. Oh, we have a problem sending success andthat will smooth it or they'll manage it, and- and we got to stop doing thatas a profession, because actually sales knows what sales does. So this isnormal service, it does mocket knows what but see us can be anything thatdoesn't make any sense. All we're doing is we're trying to plug the gaps ofproblems in the customer, experience, probably for the product problems withsupport problem with our documentation problems with our services problemswith our marketing problems, with our sales and june problems, with oursuccess motion like that's all we're doing, and so what i wanted to do isbuild a framework to say this is what success is. This is how we do it. Thisis how you measure the impact, and here the metrics that you know prove thatwe're actually doing what we said. We would do really simple, and so i wrotethe framework, so i could be really confident in in front of my leadershipteam and see and see. This is who we are. This is what we do, and this ishow we do it and when something pops up that is not in that framework, great,let's come together as a company, as customer success put our customerssuccessor on. How do we solve this problem? It's not css problem to go fixas it's a product problem. Okay, product help us go fix that maybe it isa success thing, maybe we're not on boarding them correctly and educatingthem on how to use all our resources. Like there's a great quote, i use inthe book from scott hagan who's, a chief commercial officer at what disill,which is no one, owns the customer, but someone always owns the moment, and so,if we have that mentality when something goes wrong, it's not olcsefix it. It's who owns this moment whose responsibility is it okay? You need tostep in and help fix. It will all support you and so for me, writing abook is that framework that was missing on what customer success really is andhow it should work. Not all these other things that people have are runningaround doing it. It's just defining the function and while it might not beadopted as the industry primer, i'm hoping it's a start to a conversation,that's much bigger about the function itself and why it exists, and that'swhat i feel like to be missing all these years is because everyone's justworking it out and taking a stab at what it could be, and we got to getpast that now our customers deserve better yeah. It's so interesting to think howyoung the discipline really is. I mean it feels like for those of us that arekind of immersed in these conversations and those adjacent to it. It feels likewell, it just is it's been for years etcetera, but when you think about itultimately, another one of my guests on the podcast tod caponi is, you know,has a sales background and he's constantly reading and then postingabout, like sales materials from a hundred or even a hundred fifty yearsago, and it's interesting because you can take you- can line up three quotesone from a hundred and twenty five years ago, one from seventy years agoand one from seven months ago, and they all sound a little bit the same. Buthere i really appreciate the way you broke that down and i think you'reright. I think this an important again for listeners. The seven pillars ofcustomer success is a really great read to kind of firm up some of what's beenreally loose in this young maturing situation, and i love the quote thatyou pulled out to this idea that someone owns the moment, let's figureout who does own the moment? No one owns the customer because when we thinkabout who is owning the customer, then we start. You know, following thetraditional funnel and we're handing the customer off handing the customeroff handing the customer off, which goes back to where you were in thebeginning, which is we're thinking about it all operationally, and what dowe need? What do we want? How to we see the customer verses? What is thecustomer actually experiencing? What do they need? What do they want what'sbest for them in each of those moments, whether it's a good moment or a badmoment for that individual, the effects of all everyone's touches the productis product is in that moment. Marketing is in that moment sales is in thatmoment, even if it's a post sale moment like the influence of everybody, is ina lot of those moments, yeah that was a monologue of my owncetra. I didn't put that in the book in second edition you're exactly right and that conceptof owning a customer sort of went away with owning the software. You don't own,the software anymore, you rent the software through a subscript ist inyeah. So why are we still acclaim to owning a customer? You don't own acustomer like we are a moment and then...

...that to me that critical, that thatstatement to me change my perception on even how icommunicate inside my own company, because you come across people that arevery much like well, i solve the customer, that's my is my account. Youknow, or i'm an plient at the customers. That's my cantal! The cs is like wellto see a sim along the whole journey, so it's my account and people confuse acontact like a central contact with the ownership and that's not what it'sabout, and i often talk about the customer success. The cs team is kindof like they like parents. I feel uncomfortable saying that, but theylike parents in the organ sort of saying he's a bad experience for thecustomer and you i need your help to sort of come up with a solution andmake that better or or likewise he's an amazing experience you provided as aservice as organization. We need to do more of that. Congratulations good foryou and really highlight that to the company saying this is really customerscentury activity going on over here in the soceite like we are the kind oflike the responsible for making sure that we're pointing these things aregood or bad, because all of those moments of truth is what creates aperception of experience to the customer, and we need to be good at alland some are easy summer. Heart some take a lot of work, some don't, butevery one of them counts towards forming the perception of what value.What the experience is like for your grand yeah you've you've already pulledforward two of my kind of lightning round topics which i love. No, no, it'sgood. Let's hit those seven pillars really quickly i'll, just read them andthen maybe share whatever you want about any one of them or the way theywork together or these tight. I think people will see part of the flow, butyou've done a nice job kind of book, ending them to so number. One isoperationalize cs to on boarding three adoption for retention: five expansion,six advocacy, seven strategic advisor, so i think most people will recognizekind of the structure of on boarding, adoption retention, expansion, advocacyso maybe start with operational izing cs. And then i think when we get intomy lightning round him air, quoting for people that are lit, video clips willhit on strategic advisor there. So but just start start at the top and thenmaybe share anything else. You want about how you structure these seven,yes or a funny story about the seven pillars is when i started writing it.It was the five pillars and then it was six. I got de nine at one point and thereality was as i test these and i talked to my peers and i look at whati'm doing in my business and i'm really trying to understand what these pillarsshould be and it came to seven and it's lucky because someone said seven's agood number for a book, but it's a lucky number or it's easy to like seven.Seven, seven habits of early effect pop, like seven, is good right. People likeseven, so the publisher was good on on board with seven, but the rally was, istarted with the customer and i said: what's a customers journey with us insass and the problem is, is not a lidia right, but there's there's definitestages of the journey. So then they knew they're on boarding. Then theyhave to adopt it and then they have to get value which enables you to retainthem and then hopefully they find more value and you get more use cases. Maybemore licenses companies growing and do you know new departments and thenultimately they love it so much they'll advocate. So for me, i'm like okay,cool there, my five pillars, but then i'm like well actually to execute onthe five pillars. I need to operationalize customer success, whichis all about. How do i get repeatability and scale of what greatlooks like so my customers are always going to get the best that we can giveand as a company i always know, i'm delivering on the promise, and sooperationalization was the very first pillow. Because to me that's thefoundation. I can go, give you the framework to build a beautiful houseand, of course, you get to choose the tile and the carpet and all thefurniture and that's that's the value you bring to the framework. But withouta foundation it's going to be shaky, and so i'm not sure if this is in thelightning around or not, and there are ten tools that you kind of need in yourtool box to operationalize success, and i did a lot of analysis on is a ten isat tees or four is at seven. The reality is the most common ten that ialways see in every business case that i've been the thought leaders, i'vespoken to, and companies i've worked with. There are ten of those and onceyou've operationalize those ten, whether it's through sophisticated data,science and a whole bunch of investment over years or you're, just starting outusing a google sheet to get going. It doesn't matter as long as you startbuilding out those ten tools that then lays a foundation for those fivecustomer journey stages to be executed on a scale with repeatability. Then thebook ends you talk about on the other end of the scale is a strategic adviser.Again too often, customer success is mo my see as same as a firefighter know:they're, a value creation person, no they're, actually a growth engine. Nowthey. Ultimately. If someone knows your...

...o, your ouse of endako, your product,you know your customers, market or industry. You know your customerschallenges and problems. You bring a unique perspective of how our productcan transform your organization to grow revenue or produce, casts or createmore users a to whatever the customers of jetties are strategically. You cango. Do that and it's funny because every ses mission, stamen i've everseen, says we are the trusted adviser and i'm like. Isn't everyone meant tobe a trusted, advise in my support person, my legal people, my financesshouldn't? They all be trusted or they're, not trusted, but we are like.I think, people sort of just use it because they've heard it, but thereality is. I think we need to be more than trusted. We need to be strategicand i even had a great conversation with someone they're like well. Notevery product is a strategic product and i make will be me an example andthey said trillo. You know it's kind of helps. You plan out projects and stuff,and i'm like oh wow, trolle. Well, what? If what? If we had a pandemic andsuddenly a to on board a bunch of people remotely and you had to go takenthrough a bunch of steps and now had trailer, you could do that and thattransforms the way you are board. Employee, like people are thinkingreally small when it comes to well, the only real big transformations are yourcr or your eps, or o, like these big monolithic to i'm, like the thesmallest technology, can transform for a group of people or even a company howthey do business and your job is a cm is to be very strategic. We talk moreabout that later bit. Those are the seven pillars for me, and but it startswith your company and people like. Is it this a book about customer successand you're, starting with, and i'm like, it's like employee success drivescustomer success. Operationalize success gives you a foundation forcustomer success. There's a bunch of work. You've got to do. I've got towork out and train. If i want to do the iman like i it's just that's why youhave to start there and it's a hundred percent in your control. So that's whythat's the first pillar, but yes, they're the seven pillars and, like isaid they don't have to be linear. You can be on boarding another departmentand another part of a company while you're expanding in another put, sothey don't necessarily follow each other. Initially, it does the firsttime that the nature of assassin that infinite motion of finding more valuebuying more product on boding, more people expanding, but that you can goin any direction and that's the key aspect of the pillars. Super i'll justshare an idea that i thought was cool or interesting or helpful and we justqualify it. How were you like when you already touch on this a little bit, buti'm going to part with another concept, customer success as the parents and asthe police, not just helping customers, but alsohelping all departments, help customers in the moments that they own along thejourney yeah? Well, maybe we grew up in different house holes, but my parentswere the police. So there's the same thing to me: it's the it's the keepingorder as the building of the relationship. So it's the setting thetorn it's it's all of those things. So i absolutely agree- and i think one ofthe really cool parts of being in a ses sort of function inside a company isyou get to help other organizations reframe how they think of the customer.I've mentioned on other conversations with people like the finance department,sending out hey renewals coming up in sixty days, just heads up get prepared,he's the amount, blah blah blah, it's very formal and very corporate, and i'mlike that's a great opportunity to create an experience. That's unique!You know why not create an html email that goes off and says we're so excitedthat our partnership is coming up for a or because we get to extend it he's thewinds we've had in the last twelve months. Were you know, you're thinkingof the pecum person over that company doesn't care. They just need to knowthat there's a renewal coming, that's not the point. The point is you arecreating an opportunity for a perception of your brand in other partsof the business. The cn might not necessarily be talking to you're infinance. You get to talk to a bunch of people. We don't get to talk to takethe opportunity to solidify the relationship, to talk about thesuccessors, to really show that we are excited about it, not just a corporatestock standard email. So, and that's just one example, and you can gothrough every department and see if you're touching the customer in any way.There is an opportunity for us to tell them how much we appreciate theirbusiness to show them that we're actually taking some time like we're,so excited being a customer since two thousand and fifteen and since then,we've had some tremendous winds and here's a you presented at ourconference. It's not hard to do, but imagine as a procurement or financepeople and they're sitting there in a pan are going. We got to cut some coplike well seems like we do a lot of these people like it's. It's just yourjust influencing your brand and how people think about you. That could makea big difference, and you don't even know it, but it doesn't mean weshouldn't. Do it so anyway see us. Has it has the opportunity to police how well we do across all theorganization and point out what's good and point out what we could do betterto cilli love the example and again you...

...just think about how many boringstraight, no personality emails, that person is getting and just beingdifferent at all, is immediately an improvement. Of course i had that quotefrom scott hudgens as a talking point, but we've already covered that quickly.Give me a take on the common mistakes that you see, and you mentioned threeof them: no play books, no data scientists and no health scores. Yeahyeah, i think not having the journey mapped, is always a big miss mostpeople just assume they know the journey and it is like well, we have aframework on how we deliver and implement and real and renew a customer,and so that's the that's the customer journey and that's not the customerjourney. That's just that's our journey, and so people miss that you're rightabout play books that ability to repeat what is great at scale is how you makesure that, no matter, if i, in france or ida or australia or the us i'm goingto get an experience, that is the best we can get because i've mapped it out.I know what it looks like and i can educate every person. That's going todeliver that, whether that's inces, the redue team supporter, whateverplaybooks, are super important and customer health. Customer health is atricky one, because usually it's an amalgamation of all these imports. Andultimately you know i remember you know at a sales course there was a hundredand twenty. I inputs that would drive a early morning system that would flagand see a play book to the cam to go, execute the solar problem before itever. You know eventual ated into a chain, that's great. I talked to othercompanies that identified hey, there's only two or three things features thathave to be used and the companies that do that. We have a ninety nine percaveattention. So, let's just get every company to do that and we sold that.But what customer hell it allows you to do is to be proactive is to understandwhere there are challenges and get straight on top of it. And so you knowthat's really essential. But there's a lot of other things to a risk frameworkis really critical. There's lots of different types of risk in an accountand if we can identify what that is up front, for example, there could be afit risk, fit so fit risk, which is how product might not actually suit exactlywhat they're doing, but there's a promise of a road map change or there'sa you. Could you know you could use the product to do this? It's not reallywhat it's for, but it could because and the customers excited about your brandand they buy it, and then they end up getting stuck and they call support andit cost you a lot and then they turn so there's a fit risk that should beidentified, and there are many other risks as well and so just being able toclassify them and know sort of what steps we could take to potentially aver problem later is really critical. Success plans are really important,which is you know your shared plan with the customer on how we're going to besuccessful together so that you can celebrate wins with your state hollersand your leadership. So as my sponsor i'm going to help you get promoted andshow value, and then i'm going to do the same as a cito sure they to myorganization that i'm doing the right things and success. Plans is a greatway to do that. Segmenti, the customers appropriately super critical and we alloften overlook that we always go to the well- is high touch me: touch and techtouch or low touch, and, and we create the triangle and the way we go, and wedon't really think about segmentation. You know the funniest one is, and istill see it. I just read it the other day on linkedin and i was just laughingbecause we're still having this conversation about how much a r, howmuch revenue should a cs b managing and i'm like it, doesn't matter. It's thewrong question, because i have a product that asps, a tin grand or atgoogle cloud it could be ten million. It doesn't matter what matters is. Whatdoes it take to make a customer successful as a cs m? How much effortis that? How much time do you spend on boarding? How much time does it spend adoti? You got to map all that out and do the hard work on knowing exactlywhat it takes. So you can look at someone's capacity and say this onecustomer is all you have time for, because it's big and it's corrib andthe deploying seven products, all you might say you can have ten customers,because so we don't think of segmentation properly generally, and i,like i'm, standing critical, i'm critical of myself because that's how istarted to i'm like. Oh, let's draw the trying go because i saw it and that'swhat i ron talked about and i talked about. Let's do the full million or twomillion or this this person says it should be three millions. So let's dothree minute, like that's just us trying to work it out and now i'verealized. That's the actually the wrong thing to be looking at, but it's becomefolk, lori guess, voice of the customers, critical, the ability tolisten to customers and people. Think that's a survey and that's again a verysimplistic view and it's great to start that way: we're going to get moresophisticated. There are lots of channels out there, whether it's social,whether it's surveys, whether it's you know, g two reviews or got n, appear inside. There's lots of lots of different places. People can talk about yourbusiness and then what do we do with that data? That's critical customerdelight is another one as well. People think listen to mahoni, that's greatcustomer delight and i'm like well, that's probably number nine on the listof things that drive to light and it's a cool one, and i like that one. Butultimately we're got to be more sophisticated in thinking about how wecreate delightful moments, starting with delying bay, which people justgive over. They want to get to the swag,...

...but i'm like delia creates delight.Don't have make no mistake, it does and then finally, what are the metrics ofour business like how we're going to measure effectiveness and impact, soour company knows what we're doing and how we're doing it and that helps withdiscussions with finance and budgeting and other stuff. So i know that was atwenty seven minute answer to your question, which we probably meant to bea three minute answer. But the point is there are lots of things that we needto consider and again, if you're, starting out or pivoting your career orbecoming a new leader and success especially or want to become one,that's a lot, that's a lot, and he so why did you start? How do you stopputting it together and it's funny is you're breaking some of that down?That's what i was thinking. It's like all right. What rule within ourorganization like we're, still a relatively smallish business. You knowwe're about a hundred and forty people or so about seventy zero customers and,like i'm, just thinking about it, but we have resources right. So i'm justtrying to think like okay, who would do that? Are we doing that? Who should betaking that on kind of a thing like i get it, it's it's a lot, yeah! That's a cool thing about havinga framework is you could literally take the framework in my book and, like isaid it might not be the framework for you, you can build your own and that'scool, but if you have something to start with and just say, okay, let'sscore ourselves on each of these components. Do we have this? Yes or no?If he s what level is it? Is it basic because that manual is it automated isa prescriptive, is a predictive? Is it like you think about that maturity,model and just map out your organ say: where do we think is the best place toadd additional value right now? Let's go just focus on that over the year ortwo or three is your company grows you'll, start to build that out andhave a fully fridge. Hopefully automated predictive data science. I amall the cool things, and but you want to start that way and atleast having a framework all as you just say. Well, this is where ere anthis is what we're going to do next and everyone's clear and it's obvious and-and you can follow the journey throughout your career, on how we'veevolved this and it's kind of cool, if you're, new and young starting out todo that, it's much harter going into a b company, that's established and builtall this rigor and frame process and expectations. That's a lot harder, butyou have an advantage to hey: let's stop, let's start from scratch and seewhat we come up with. I think it's called yeah prioritize and start doingthem in your priority order. You already mentioned journey mapping fromthe customers perspective rather than the company perspective. A couple otherideas, i thought were interesting for the sake of time, i'll just kind ofbundle them and you can react to any of them that you prefer hiring a thirdparty to do exit interviews with customers. I thought that was reallysmart and probably not a common practice. Despite ai chat, bots andother channels. We still need to actually talk to people, and youalready alluded to this one too earlier. What both of these actually the firstis. The future of this is a quote from the book. The future of customersuccess means investing in your people like really an ex, as the driver of cxmentality is like the more we can invest in our people, functionally themore we're investing in our customers, because it really is all about that.That team member bringing a lot of these concepts to life and reallyworking a score card or, however, you set up the you know the framework forwhat you want, your organization to do and how you want to like level up onthese various things. And then i pulled a quote on the strategic advisor andi'll just read it, because i have it- and i think it's important for folksthat maybe don't get to that page in the book for no good reason, exceptthat they didn't do it. A strategic adviser is someone who actively advisesorganizations on important strategic decisions in an unbiased fashion. Ithink that's key using deep industry, knowledge and domain expertise todeliver the best outcomes through business and digital transformation. Imean that is really the essence of cs in a lot of ways. The way you definedit is this, this seventh pillar of strategic advisory, yeah yeah, thatlast one. I think i use my my miracle on thirty. Fourth street example totalk about you as a great movie of mine. I remember watching as a kid i'mtalking about the you know the ties version or whatever, like i remember asa kid thinking, it doesn't make sense why santa claus would recommend buyinga toy from a different department store that it makes no sense. Why would youdo that? And- and it's not until year older, that you recognize that thecustomer has a need, you can't provide it, but you know who can suddenly thevalue you have to that individual is exponentially higher because you arehelping them solve the problem, but the court that the lady then says when sheleaves the department store to someone at the department store she's like iwill be a customer for life like i, i will come to this store first, everytime, if i find it in by it. If i don't you're going to help me go find it. Whywould i go in your else like and to me i'm like that's, that's the issana, astrategic advisors not not be sang a cause, but to be thinking about what isin the best teachers of my customer. I...

...e ad a great cs m when i was at acustomer of sales force and he would ask me a question like what challengesdo you have today that i can potentially help with and i'm like? Oh,i don't have any sales horse here and to he goes. No. No! What in general,you know he's doing a great job because he's learning my business and what andi said well, i have this really problem with this. That he's like. Oh, i know aperson. I can connect you with someone. They knew great stuff around that it'snothing to do with self horse, but i'm like you're so valuable to me, like i'm,going to come to you with all my problems because you're helping meright and that's that's really important, but i'm the first one youmentioned about it's when i talk about churn journey mapping, so we docustomer a journey maps, but i've created this thing called to changejourney map that i did with a company called third, so we did it togetherwith ron carson over there and and it's because i suddenly realized when i wasinterviewing customers why they were leaving they're like we did get valueproduct was too hot, like you get a bunch of stuff and really when i had athird party go talk to the same, i just wanted to see the different. I learnedso much more. They weren't telling me the truth and the third party mender,which is third side by the way they said. Look, customers don't want tohurt your feelings. They don't want to get someone in trouble more or worse.They think you're trying to weazle your way back. In so i'll just say anythingthat it just make it impossible for you to combat like to expense it. You knowwhat we can discount up too late, already moved on much better bit likethat's, not the problem they had, and so what a churn journey map does is.Actually, when we talk about moments of truth, is we failed here? We failedhere. We failed here, so we have our customer experiences being eroded androaded or roaded to a point where they will consider someone else to go, givethem a better experience and what happened? Is you see these themes andthese customers have these same failures of moments of truth andthey're little they're, not big they're, not escalation life side down likethey're, not those things typically, then lots of little things and a thirdparty elicits that very, very in a very honest and frank way that you would notget as a vendor for the reasons i mentioned. So i would always recommenduse a third party because you get the honest truth as painful as it is toread and his embarrassing as it is to see sc. Well, i guess what we messed uphere, because we sent them. We call them by their wrong name in all theiremails, like just simple things that can be easily fixed, but we missed itjust stuff like that. You just got to own up to it, go fix it, and you knowwhat the rewards are really amazing. Yeah the churn journey map is so smartand, of course, yeah i mean the people are either going to be super pissed orthey're going to be super polite and you're not going to get what you need.If you come straight out and and you're exactly right, they, you know a lot ofpeople are going to perceive. It is like trying to reclose something thatwalked away really quickly before we wrap up here, we've acknowledged thatit's a young discipline but a super critical one. It's moving quickly.There are some practices that are established, but, more importantly,there are frameworks we can think about it through. Where are we with csoverall, where we going? How do you feel just a couple quick ads for me? Ifeel like in hosting a podcast like this, i'm seeing cx become moreimportant. I'm seeing the cro rule become more important, which kind oflike welcome cs into the you know, into the revenue conversation more directlylike what are some trends or expectations or hopes or concerns youhave about the future. The discipline yeah just a couple of quick ones. Themonetization of customer success is real, it's happening, and it's becauseof this strategic advisor like if i have someone who's that valuable. Iwould pay for that and it's weird you hear those adverse reactions. When yousay we should charge for custom success, that's the worst thing. Why would youthis? Is our investment in the customer? I'm like? Well, our investment issupport, but we sell premium support offerings to do even more. We haveservices itself. We are training themselves like why can't success havepremium success. Services that are business, value orientated andcustomers would say yes come in help me transport, my business, give me theblue prints. Show me the roy and help me on their journey, like customerswill pay for that. So i think the monetization of success is coming.Perhaps not all success is monetized, but just like support like you get acertain level of service and if you want to anty that up, if you want tojust take it to the next level, you have an ability to do that and it'sfunded by the customer. So it's not a cost equation challenge, it's a it's askills, and do we have value? That's the first one. I think we've got tostart the conversation of thinking more broadly about what customer success. Isit's not a group of cms. That is just one part, and there are companies thatare starting to put this together, actually saw. The chief customerofficer is become like the standard title or someone across all thosefunctions, but i didn't see the other day there was a chief customer successofficer, roll which i thought it was the they get it right. They giv it thatit's across all the functions, and it... customer success it's it is, and ithink your point about the cro and sales in the ses model. The upfrontsale is not where the money's made right, but it is super critical to addnew customers to the funnel. So it's not changed. What changed is ratherthan all the roman. You sit with the sail up front and then you, milk ofmaintenance stream at the back end. Those days are gone. What happens? Isyou land a customer and then the customer success organizations job isto retain it and expand it now that doesn't mean they have quarters. Thatdoesn't mean that they sell. It just means that their job, through thenature of attaining value and finding more value, creates the opportunity togo back to sales to prosecute more new revenue into the business, and so thathunter farmer delineation, i think, will become stronger. Most companiestry to straddle both or they give ces. You know quarter, but i think what whatwe're really seeing is that delineation of hunter farmer there's a great bookabout that as well. We for bet enough time, but ultimately i do think thatthat delineation is becoming important and more. The revenue sits on thecustomer side, but cros at a sabby enough. Workout that i can use thismassive engine of customer success to drive my new revenues, not new logos,but you remanet the business from existing customers and once you getthat dream partnership, it's p b and j like these, so good together and thosecompanies that work it out have tremendous success really good. Ifyou've enjoyed this conversation with wayne, i've got two more than i know.You'll like episode, one d, seventeen with jeff bruns bach, who, by the way,hosted a great conversation with wayne on the game, goal retained podcast. Irecommend that podcast, if you like, these themes and topics. Jeff is thedirector of cx at higher logic and a leader in the game girl, routinecommunity, and we titled that on your first thirty, sixty and ninety days ina new c x roll because they had just been acquired by higher logic. He hadjust taken that roll on, but i know you'll enjoy that conversation in oneseventeen and then were recently in a hundred and thirty three with leacheney, she's, co, founder and chief experience officer at better growth. Wecalled that the four as of customer experience and when i know you'll, seeyour corfe functional pillars in these acquisition activation adoption andadvocacy so again, similar themes in a hundred and thirty three with leacheney wayne before i let you go i'd, love to know two things: first, who youmight like to think or mention for creating a positive impact on your lifeor your career and second, a company or a brand that you really appreciate forthe experience that they deliver for you as a customer. Yes, so i want toacknowledge tom organ, who was the co via went to hp so cony and el tomseville filed sebald as a company back in the late s early two sand, so hegave me my first start as an executive on a leadership team and it's been ingreat coaching mentor and he's pretie. Now, though, i think he's working withvista, but you know if he hadn't have had that belief in me back. You knowtwenty odd years ago, i probably wouldn't be here today and of course,as i mentioned, maria martin is for helping me understand this. Customeropportunity from a success perspective for a career, so both of those peopleare great from a company. I think i mentioned it in the book, but i love toshout it out, because this is what you do when you love a grand. You want totalk about it and that's clear, which is the express line in of the airportthat i missed for so long, but just my experience at the denver airport i hada horrible experience. I filled out the survey within an hour. Someone got backto me. They explained why it happened. They explained what they're doing toprevent it from happening, and they gave me their personal contact detailsthat any other problems at the denver airport with clear email me directly. Iwill jump straight on it and i'm like that is. That is a customer experiencethat is unmatched in the most of the world. Today, when you get a survey-and you say you guys suck well, maybe you get something back thanks for yourresponse, you know, maybe someone will call you a colored it like. You knowthey don't care, it's just a vanity metric for them and they're trying towork on, but this was to genuine, like thank you for your feedback, he's andexplain it. That's also. I love that. So that's my clear go. Get it awesome. Well done, how can someonefollow up with you check out more about the book the google cloud sasportaslike? Where would you send people who enjoyed this conversation yeah sothings around the book and all things come from a success, so there's awebsite to cspes still building it out, some it almost done, but you candownload the all the stuff in the book the diagrams the ten plays. You can goon that site and download all the content and they're all the podcast.I've done and other information is that you can contact me directly there orjust follow up and linked in give me a direct message. I've had a lot ofpeople, talk, tell me about the book and the impact has had and how it'sactionable and stuff. So you know please, if you read the book and youlike it, let me know and i'd love to connect with you on linking awesome. Irecommend that you read it. I enjoyed it wain i enjoyed the converation aswell. Thank you so much for your time...

...with us all some things he there notlove of being here. I can wait to do it again in the future: clearcommunication, human connection, higher conversion. These are just some of thebenefits of adding video to the messages you're sending every day. It'seasy to do with just a little guidance to pick up the official book.Rehumanize your business, how personal videos, accelerate sales and improvecustomer experience learn more in order today at bombance flock that's b, o m btombo fuck thanks for listening to the customer experience. Podcast rememberthe single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver abetter experience for your customers, continue. Learning the lateststrategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favorite podcastplayer, or visit bom bomo podcast.

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