The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode 141 · 5 months ago

141. Understanding the Intersection of CX, UX, and UI w/ Joey Kilrain


Not all elevators are created equal. Some have the emergency button placed too high for a child or a person using a wheelchair to reach. The design is not centered on what a human needs.

Same applies to visual design.

In this episode, I interview Joey Kilrain, Founder/CCO Experience Design at DED, about the intersection between the importance of visual design on CX, UX, and UI.

Joey and I talked about:

- The complicated Venn diagram of CX, UX, and UI

- How Human-Centered Design serves customers

- Tips for having a constructive conversation about design

- Brand guidelines vs. design systems

- What Joey has learned from teaching design

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S actually be the bigger circle. Whileyou win, you CSANTA go side by side right, you could have a greatexperience for the terrible I you can have a great I, but at Terrible Ux, youknow, and you were to obviously try to get the two to be. You know in in Yank. The single most important thing you cando today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers,learn how sales marketing and customer success experts create internalalignment, achieve desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in apersonal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast, here'syour host Ethandune strategy, technology and design. How do we bringthese together to unify the customer experience across sites across apps andacross all the touch points? That's the expertise of today's guest he's thefounder of ded digital experience, design, a team that works withcompanies ranging from startups to Fortune. One hundred companies they'vehelped brands like the weather, channel, ceridiven, ghost ery he's also anadjunct, professor of UX and visual design at the Fashion Institute ofTechnology in New York. I'm definitely asking him about that. He is joy, killrain, joey, welcome to the customer experience podcast. If thank you somuch for having me yeah. I'm excited for this conversation before we getinto it. For folks who are listening to this, which is the main function of thepodcast, is to release the audio. We also do video clips. You can see themwhen you go visit, the post of Bobbo podcast. I also put some of them onlink in and so for folks who may want to check this out. I would love to rybrief for your background and then have you tell me about it. You know off toyour right. I see a set of tools on the wall off to your left. I see acollection of license plates. I see a barber pole. I see what I assume hisoriginal art work, or maybe or or from a close friend. What kind of space areyou in and what does that say like so one of the things I love about videoand being partly pandemic, but also like through the video messaging thatwe do with Bombombay that you can get to know people simply by what's aroundthem. Tell me a little bit about yourself based on where you are rightnow yeah. So this whole room became public,obviously by coved, and I should have prefaced this with. I love tellingjokes and stuff like that. So the way thisactually happened was, of course, ovid hit and we're like yeah, no one's goingto be going to the office, any time shot and the wife. You know I love herto death, but she got the better space. She got like what your room looks likelike very organized and everything is like. It looks like a professional spotand for me it was all right. I have two kids and I your on and a five year old,both are constantly and fire mode and they love conference Bob so either aI'm going to be doing all my calls in the bathroom, because that's where wehave the doors or it's in my little cave here, so this room came about manymoons ago, moved out to Jersey. We have this little space down here and it'sactually kind of big LAVERNA. There's ink there's a whole of e spot over here,but yeah I was like okay. This is the room where I'm going to know do stuff.So one of my counterbalances in life is I've been building classic cars forages. I love building these things and throughout my tenure I've been able toacquire. You know like license place to start from different cars. Some mightpick up. The car shows o ther ones. I pick up at like yard sales or or evenat like, like I buy a car, you fish it out of the bar and you find so so whatyou see in the warld behind me is a series of different places places andit either owned myself, where they were from place that I picked up and Ithought it made for a cool background, but I didn't thought it was coin: GoPublic Yeah. I just thought this is for me now. The Barber Pole, though, whichgrate about that is coved, obviously turned a lot of thingsaround and one of the places here in Jersey. I wasgetting my hair cut. We mind to be a lot where I'm from so I'm originallyfrom south illy and you go to the barber shop and everybody felt thegossip and these guys were no different. Bottom Afa Oso talk a lot of yeah atype thing, but they were also in their mid to lates and Macopin hit in thebeginning. A lot of everybody was like...

...totally scared, especially the elderly,so they closed down their barber shop, but the barber shop had been theresince, like one thousand nine hundred forty two, and they were the secondorders that barber pole has been sitting outside their shop since L, onethousand nine hundred and fifty to one thousand nine hundred and forty two.Fifty two thing like that. So I saw- and I never built a barber pole right,and it was the only thing that was wrong with it was that the motor didn'twork and that color ring in it was all messed up for being outside for thirtyforty, it yeah yeah. Exactly so, I said Yeah, you know a hundred bucks hundredfifty bucks took it and I did a Yutu video of me taking it apart andreassembling it, and now it's like- and I thought Oh that'd be awesome inputting a room. So I put that up there as well. But then, when the when thecamera went on, it was like go. This room has become something totallydifferent now. So a piece of advice that I would give to the listeners isthat yet to what you said earlier, having your backgroundset to what youdo, helps have a conversation. You have no many how many conversations had withpeople. It starts off with the background and then we get into like,like I'm building a school bus on my drive, we vital sixty six, suburban,I'm building and it's been great. But when I talked about people like, Oh, mydad had one and you make that emotional connection right away. Right or they'lltell you I'm building a boat or doing this for doing that and there's aconnection right away there, and I think that's something where, insteadof just talking business all the time, you really want to get to kind of knowthem a little bit. First like what do you? What get you to tick and, ofcourse, with me and all the building lends itself to what I do as a designer,where yeah I'm more on the business side of design, where, whatever youridea is I'm here to bring that into reality and that reality is going torequire a lot of research into like what product or software we're going totry to use we're going to talk about the team, how the team's got to do thisand, more importantly, managing the expectation of what you have, becausewhat you may want may not be doable for budget or for the amount of time wehave to get it done. You know love that that that response to a was interesting.It was personal and I feel like so many of the themes that you were at there,especially over the last minute or so really t up where we're going to gotoday. I'm glad we started there so now we'll go where we always start the restof the conversation which is customer experience when I say that to you joy,what does it mean? You know funny that, for me, is such aneasy thing, so customer experience is an experience, a Ecus Omer. Coming back.That's a good customer experience. I look for a great customer experience,which is not only are they coming back, but they're bringing their friends andfamily the average are going just for a good experience. The great are goingfor you, invite your friends and write your people to come back and use ourproduct. So that's where I focus a lot of my attentions on when doing that.Now. How do you achieve? That, though, is another question, because everybodyhas like all this analytics and feed back and your personal opinion and allthat stuff, and my first thing is to stop all that thinking and to removeall the emotion from that argument and, for example, let's say Ethan you're,the boss, Joe says, is designer ethen, says joy that I want all this stuff,Lah, ah Bah and because you're the boss, I have to listen, you're the paincustomer. I felicite, even though you're paying me for my expertise. Ihave to listen. Why because you're the boss, my goals to remove that emotionfrom the conversation and say well, ethen, let's say, for example, you wantto make the logo bigger people say that often I need a bigger load. I can't seeit I say yeah you could make a bigger, but that logo is going to come out ofthe framework dimensions that we have and now we can change you. But it'sgoing to add, let's say a week to change you on the framework.Could you cool with that? So that's a reality. That's a hard fact that justgot do it and- and you know be done with it now. It's like here's a fact,there's a reason why I bring that up because sometimes we're scared to talkto the people that are paying us and no, like you hired me for this,like my reputation, has been to work with quality and not quantity. I'm nothere to bang out a bunch of small...

...things, I'm here to look at the bigpicture, we're going to we're going to figure this out, but I'm also not herejust to yes, yes, yes and go you know, that's it, and thankfully that has notbeen most of my career is the majority. My career has been with people who are.They may have a very strong vision, but they'll listen to reality, if you bringthem that right and so from there. My next step is like what are some of thekey words that we take away from that big key were for a customersatisfaction. No, the keyword, promise feeling genuine helping and empathyright. That's pretty much what we all want, but you'll notice, I don't saylike fast, cheap or good. That's what my average yeah and that could touch onlike it. Working with offshore teams versus on short teams, people may saywell all first cheaper they in yeah. They are right, but that doesn't meanyou're not going to a espontoon five ten times to get it done. So you havethis frustrating factor of going off short, which it's not to dismiss offshore. I think there's a lot of great options there, but you got to know yourteam and having worked with guys on Belleros, having worked with guys inIndia yeah, like I know like culturally, there are some hurdles that you gothrough and is it really worth ten dollars per person right? I'd ratherhire one person have them get it done in a fraction of the time and payingthat then have to deal with one group that I got to pay, maybe for a longerperiod of time, but a smaller rate, because then it's just like the wholefrustrating part, so yeah, that's how I've looked at customer experienceagain great customer experiences when they bring in their French Gate Di.That's a really simple bottom line. I think it's fair too, for those of usthat aren't into the nuance of these terms. Can you just break this down forus CX customer experience which a regular listener to the show isfamiliar with, and we discuss, obviously all the time but CX versus? UX, user experience versus may be you I, which is user interface like. Where arethese things overlap? Where do they divergee? Are these? You know? How doyou think about those three IDs? CX? U Xi! So you need like a ven diagram forthat kind of thing, but so CX is everything from start to finish and areally good example of that would be Amazon right, Amazon you can orderthrough your phone package gets delivered. You openpackage, it's all good or if there's a problem you contact customer support,they take it back. They make you happy that entire circle is customerexperience, you're dealing with branding you're dealing with theemotional experience of how they're navigating the product, but also theirsatisfaction very basically, looking at ezacally did it any one of those bigcompanies that are really pushing that stuff they're focused on Cx, becausethat's important now the user experience is a little differentbecause the experience of you ordering on your phone versus poring on yourcomputer or two different things and order on your phone on me by just usingthe mobile APP not quit, be just. We use the mole, so that is a differentexperience where they're ordering it there. However, the user experience foropening the package is another thing like one of the thingsAmazon did, which I thought was amazing and I brought it to my class- was thatthey had corporate boxes where you could cut out animals only if you wereshipping goods that had kids stuff in it m, so you could use the box as likea toy, and I for anyone, who's got kids, I'm kind of mad that I spent so muchmoney on toys or my kids, because a big box with two kids in it they love itand they'll, spend hours running and out of the botch for some, like. I justspent like fifty sixty bucks on all this linco stuff, you're n't, evenlooking at it you're playing like castle and cops and robbers in the andthe box. But to see that on there I thought Yo, that's amazing right, butyet again, that's another part of the user experience now. The last part isyou Y, which ironically, Ui has two definitions. It's use your interface,but it's also user interaction and people usually forget the interactionpart, but the user interface is what you see. The user interaction is whathappens when I click it. Does it move around the page. Does it fade indoesn't do any of that kind of stuff...

...and they all have their pros and cons,but that's pretty much breaking it down so see actually be the bigger circle.While you Yanus sort of go side by side right, you could have a greatexperience, but a terrible Ui. You can have a great I, but a terrible. U X,you know, and you were to obviously try to get the two to be. You know in inthe act, yeah really good well down. That was healthful for me and I'm sureit was for for other folks too, before we go much further for context. Tell usa little bit about ded digital experience, design like who's yourideal client and what problems are you solving for those folks sure so sofunny? The Way Dead Company came about was totally like. Just by I don't know.The name came by by the snake, but we're just support you guys in a room,and we were trying to figure a way on how to say we do digital experiences. Ithink there is a that's a moutfort. You can't say that more than twice withoutyou know having a drink, a class for water, but when someone in the room said dead, Ithought Oh, that's, amazing, and then we and I mentally found a dead company.The Europe was available and I just bought it. You know right out the gate,but what we do is exactly that. So we do. A lot of work would start up somefourteen hundred companies that are in big data and companies like in FANTECand at TEC. We do a lot of work with them and their work ranges from thelook and feel of the product to the design system. Now, while we do workwith those those groups, another group that's come into. The picture whichreally wasn't on a rador until probably covet is the education sector. Wherethere's a lot of universities, as you probably are aware, they got pumble byOvid, because a lot of state universities get funding from thegovernment depending on how many stupids are in the school, and youdon't have students in the school. You want get that kind of funding, not tomention that a lot of universities were not tech ready, and it just baffles methat these guys didn't know. videoconferencing like why, like groupslike General Assembly or skill share, or some of these other good, which Iactually had the chance to work with when they first started many moons ago,why those guys took off because they were already embracing this onlineworld of doing stuff. Not granted is ut for everybody, but when coved hit itbecame every body and those guys are ready where universities really now youhave to be in school. It was a very butting seats, sort of mentality, andthen they got clober and now they're struggling to get out of it. But whatI've seen with the education groups is that universities are doing spin offsof innovation laps where they're not accredited, because they can't findthose with master degrees to teach UX to teach visual as quickly whichpersonally, I have my reservations about a full time, professor, who hasnever worked in the field, verses and Adjungi, and the back and forth, and Iget like tenured professors, their books, more I'm street sport you needboth, but at the end of the day it's going to the street. You know you, ifyou're really trying to get this thing to go, you're going to you're going tohave to get in the dirt with the guys and try to build build. This thing I soto work is yeah right right and a piece of paper. It only goes but so far youknow like how many guys, at our siege of the game, right about having amasters that you've been at it fifteen twentyyears a you got a master's. But what have you done recently with someone outof school? I could see that being beneficial, but someone who's been atit. For a long time, yeah- probably not so much, but with that said, a lot ofthese universities are spending off the innovation labs, which I've beengrateful to be working with them and we're building up these courses thatare strictly focused on this online first approach. You can come to collegeif you want, because eventually things will kind of go back to that, but it'sonline first and if you want to come to school that second, so the theme that Isee when I look at the way you're presenting yourself on linked in and onthe dead site like unify, is a being there and I think it's really important.I think my assumption and just kind of...

...take this wherever you want. Myassumption is that some of the people, you're engaging, maybe are like layeron layer of experience they were. You know there may be thirty, fifty yearsold, so they added this and then later they added the website. Late later theyadded the mobile lap. Maybe they want to adapt some things, and so it's likethis layered scenario, and I would guess that maybe, if you're workingwith younger companies is much easier to create that kind of unity of lookfeel experience ece out of the gate like is it? Is that tension real and isthat kind of the spectrum or working across yeah? That's awesome question. Ithink that happens. The matter big or small right, but I'll, say this. The firstthing we do with any company that we're going to work with is will do aheuristic evaluation, and so what is that? And that's basically us going inlooking at your product and identifying what or were of things that are justjust not going to cut it right. I've really easy low hanging. Fruit iseighty. A compliance now at complies is nothing to American Isbell Act. That'sbeen around for a long time, but unless you have someone immediately in yourfamily that has some sort of disability, you don't care right like someone, ifyou, if you have someone that do in a wheelchair, I have an uncle, haveseveral policies. So I'm absolutely aware of like some of the challengesthat he faces will try to open doors and do things and yeah. So I have a lotof empathy for that, but it wasn't until it's sort of becoming relevantwith using software that people, I think, like designers, started toembrace it, because at a compliance at times feels like it's taking the funout of what you're doing the problem is. We now have so many people with so manydifferent challenges that if you don't do that, you're alienating that groupand don't give you an example, designers love using like a soft graycolor for text at like nine point, for what. Why aren't we straining andpressing our face to the straining Skynne for what you know, and I arguethat yeah, that's a fleeting fat, that's a fact: that's going to pass andthen that person you you alienated that person I going to go and plus there'slaw suits out there. Now, there's people that the guy who couldn't orderhis pizza on Dominos and waited at the Supreme Court. Anyone and I thinkingyeah, you know why, because you alined Ed to dude- that's not fair, but itshould be. You should be thinking at a first before you ven start so that bythe time you get into your layout, you know it's Cocher and there's plenty oftools out there to help. You there's like there's a product of stark that Iuse like religiously or a lot of things that I do. Then there is like there'sanother product called type scale where you can actually see how the fun isgoing to impact the different sizes. So all those things are just tools for thedesigners to use and to make your life better and doing this kind of workwhere you took that response really leads into a topic that I'm reallyinterested in right now and and thinking a lot about talking a lotabout. I've done some writing on it, and when I get someone like you, I'mexcited to talk about it, which is human center design. You know yourapproach is defined and I'm just quoting human center research andcommon sense are the simple approach that you dake. The things which I loveon its face, but you know this idea of thinking first about who is going to beusing this, I mean it seems so obvious and so intuitive that when we'redesigning any system or process- or in this case, like a user experience oreven more broadly, a customer experience that we should be thinkingabout first and foremost, thinking about knowing understanding the peoplethat are going to be interacting with it by. I personally feel like in my ownexperience that it's so often overlooked. I think that's probably alot less so in the design community, but from your perspective andexperience and expertise give us like a basic walk through you know. What doesit mean to do Human Center Research? What is Human Center design to you?Okay, so if I start off, we should know what I so stands for and ISO isInternational Organization for...

Standardization. That's basicallytrying to get it to be in a process. You know what is that, so, when I thinkof Human Tema design to meet that's where I have a team solving a problemor problems by using design code and people's perspectives on some right-and you know, these steps include addressing all the core problems thatthat particular customers going through and I'll give you a awesome examplewhich is referencing back to wheelchair, but someone using a wheelchair to enterinto an elevator. So if we think about that whole challenge, pers comes in onthe wheelchair person needs to push a, but how much do they have to reach aget to the butt and I've actually done some research on it, where not all ofthe elevator companies follow the same set of rules. One thing gets very scaryis that they put the emergency button very high up, so I'm a six fore guy. Ican easily hit that, but someone in a wheelchair may not be able to hit that,but that's critical. So at a compliance you got to put that button down at thebottle to hit that or another example would be. Let's say: There's a woman, amother and her child mother, something happens is on the floor. That child isdefinitely not to be able to reach that, but but they can push it if it's attheir level. So it's stuff like that, that is human center design or otherexamples when I see iconography and how people take liberties of iconographythat everyone's going to get it and I think dude look at iconography as youwould like her glyphics right. If I see the search icon, that tells me it's oneof two things I either can zo or I can search find something if I see thehouse site con, what does that tell meat home right or, if I think, of likea Chevron, those like little arrows that go in certain directions? Yeahthat told me something is going to either drop down or expand. That givesme the idea and that type of Oganga is what is used throughout. You knowproducts, but I think sometimes people don't think about that person.Understanding with that, I coming when it gets complicated. So, for example,there's a company which I won't need, but they have a thing called a productmanagement experience and they wanted an icon, for I thoughtdude. What is that and what they'll do is, will create the eye come, but thenthey'll have it where they say. Oh, the custom will just hover over it and findout what it is so well. Well what? If that person is on a tablet? You can'thover on a tablet. So why are we going to already bake in a problem thatdoesn't work so either a we don't use the icon or B we have the icon with thetext. Next to it, we can collapse the menu, but you should have the abilityto expand the menu, not own hover, because harver doesn't work and everydevice not to mention people at certain dexterity challenges can't hover aswell. So now you got two stricks again, so that's human center design is whereyou know you're getting the perspective of like the designer who's done, someresearch or the developer. That can say: Hey the software can do this or thefact that white. You know the perspective of the customer is thatthey still need to do this. How do we get that fool them and make that workgo a little bit into the research process like what, like, let's just say,you get engaged by a larger client, maybe with a bigger budget and you'retrying to solve a problem that their customers are facing or that they'reanticipating, as they may be launch something new, and so they engage youon that. What types of research are you doing like how like? Is it? It's somecombination, I assume, but is it surveys? Is it watching user behavioron a website? Is it you know what kinds of researcher you're doing and thenmaybe, if relevant, lay your in like how do you blend quantitative researchwith qualitative research? You know like some of the like observations andself reporting versus survey, data or user. You know product usage, data type stuffto say like well no one's getting to this part of the act. We think it'sbecause it's hidden, you know whatever, like product usage type stuff. How doyou a lot of questions there? But how... you approach researching general,like and in a way that you might recommend to to other people? Yeah? Ah,no, that's awesome and you know funny. Whenever we started design project,it's usually a ton of stuff that comes out as it was its like everything'sburning everything's on firelight I got a a and we are all about process andprotocol. So rule number one. Is The heuristic evaluation totally doing thatright out the gate? Why? Because I need some common sense for myself to look atit. So, okay, here's where I think this thing, a't working right, number, oneand other members of the team will do it as well. Now, once we cross thathurdle the next two people, I'm looking for depending on the product of it's aproduct that that's been after for a while, I will go to customer supportand I will go to death because customer support. Here's all the complaints allday along. So I'm going to you guys, first or I'm Gong to go to thedevelopers, because the developers going to tell me where all the bodiesare buried in the software, meaning what are things that they started anddidn't go anywhere or it's like a it's a total apocalypse, and we just don'twant to touch that stuff right, and that gives me enough to say: okay, thisis where our problems are beginning. Now, of course, there's a CEO and it'snot the Basham but or higher up like so many higher up and they're going to say.Well, I have all these things that I need. So then, when we come back withour research, are we sercial point out hers to heuristic evaluation? Here'swhen we know things are civil that will come back with all right. Customersupport told this this these the what the people are complaining about, andthis is what Dev is scared of, and how does that aline with what you want, andthen we start to put it into his scoop. So his scope would be. What are wegoing to do it right now to stop the bleeding? Because there's no pointgiving you a new heart: If you're you don't Gush in from all these differentspots, we get a stop. The gushing then get into the heart right. So how do weget that part, fixed first small winds and then get into the bigger winds?which is what do we looking to do like a thinned and sixty ninety plane? Whatare we going to do right now? What are we going to assess by you know thesecond month and then third month, here's the next implementation and bythe third month, we're usually rocking a roll on that one. We've got a reallygood grip on on the product. You have an idea of who we have to talk to toget things to move and then only that, but he the client that we're workingwith those how we're going to get it done, because their process might beabsolutely chaotic, which is usually the case of everything, is on fire, andI get you right, but we're going to put out one fire first and we're going tomake sure that thing doesn't come back on fire and then we're going to moveand get the other things done and usually yeah we've been I've seenthings come together as less as like a month and a half, you know just gettingit like getting people on the right foot, because people don't like to workin those CATICA environments. It's it burns you out, O creatives. I feel badfor the visual desirers that create three and four intortionate f a layout.I do one but I'll do a dozen wire frames and my wire frames are veryclinical, so they're black and white. They may have a color like a bluishlike a blue color, to indicate that something you can click on. But I don'tget into fancy text its aerial, it's basic black and white boxes. I didn'tput pictures in it. Why I don't care, look and feel I'll, get to look andfeel, but the wire frame is where I'm going to figure out how this thing hasto run and what needs to be on the page. Instead of like creating a lay o n t eand the client is all I don't like the color purple that you have Right, Ifeel like you, give them too much detail. They're focused on the wrongthing at the Y or the headline is wrong and I were a whole new way of a a you,not look at a d and another thing for the designers, and I guess marketersright to understand. I would ask you to tell me how long disante to create alayout the Conviciandi I've been doing this for like twenty years. I would sayit takes me about eight hours to do one day out. It takes you eight seconds tosay no, I don't like it another eight hours. I gotta do it again and againand a anagan versus here's a wire frame. Technically, these are all things weneeded to do. Do we like the structure of what we have and it's not to say thewire frame is to be a coloring book right, because you know I'm going toswitch it up at at least I know this is what we need to have on the page. Thisis where some of the qualitatis are.

This is how we're going to go aboutdoing it. What do you think of that and that's a that's sort of like a babystep before you get into looking field and for me by the time I get to look infuel. I've already done all the research. I know if they don't likethey do like. We talked about font colors, all that kind of stuff. Theymay have a brand on guideline which is great and I'll sample all that stuff. Ijust start to spin it up into look and feel go to the business case of thisthe business side of this like what do people, you know whether it's the CEOor the senior person you mentioned, or anyone else that engages you and maybeeven you know, pays for the surfaces. What do people misunderstand or justplay not know about experience design like, and I guess I'll give you someoptions or directions here potentially like how do we link designed to Ri orwhat are some other measures of success? You know you already kind of did adrive by on the tension between beauty and utility. I know there's a lot of behavioralscience there that I think is probably undervalued or overlooked. You knowwhat do people not know or understand about the nature of the work that youdo, that could help bridge some divides between teams, departments,perspectives to better serf customers? HMM! Well, I would say right out thegate talking with management, because with design design is always like thistaboo thing where it's subjective and the designers can be quite touchy aboutyou making comments about their work. I would tell the all the designers outthere you definitely you need to have a bit of a thicker skin and the way thatI've handled it, and maybe this is my filly showing. But when I hear someonesay hey that sucks, I think no, no, you suck that's terrible, that's not theway. We have a constructive conversation. If you can say I don'tlike it, and here is. Why awesome that's what I want to hear. I want thatfeedback right and I have very little pride and practically no shame so whenit comes to doing this kind of stuff, for we people are going to ask me ormake their opinion about something I want you to feel invited. I want you tofeel like you can come talk to o me and tell me why you don't like it, becausenow, instead of it being like your outside the that now, you should be inwith me why I make my decisions collectively, it isn't just my opinionright. It's not just me. I need your fee back. I want you to feel a part ofthe life, because that's how we collectively get this thing to goversus doll. You Know Joe said this. Not the only time joy gets involvedthis when things are going off course, because we've either added too much toscope or someone is asking for something ridiculous E. I'm like isthat important. Now, because we need it now, I've got like ten of the thingsthat are now where's a fit in new and if it doesn't fit in okay, then it'sgot a week, but he had it might be some of my personality but yeah like there'sa No. I M A valuable guy, just no nonsense type that so that would bewhat like it with management and inviting them into cover and managementnot just being higher up like even product managers and the like. You knowplease join me in the conversation. Please be a part of this because, yes,your opinion does matter with what we're doing next thing I get into isthe desires and the reason why I kind of harp on them. A lot is because mostdesigners are marginalized by their understanding of tact. So what doesthat mean? Most designers, don't know what angular and reactors and what thatstuff does. Most designers will go and create this fancy animation for thedrop down and not realize that that comes baked in in material design, UiAngulos, you I so on, and so for so why am I going to go reinvent how that dropdown happens? My barometer for that is my mom, going to notice that change inthe drop down, and is that flipping thing you're going to do? Is that a fad,or is that something that is important, because people who have ver to go thatstuff gets in the way so yeah we're not going to do any of that kind of so andI'm not going to waste of time to go, build a prototype to have a developer,spend hours. Writing Some Java script. That's going to add one megabytes to mydown, absolutely not happen! So that's where I get with the desires and I lookto make him more nerdy. I don't need you to code, but I need you tounderstand all that stuff adds up down the line and we don't really need toworry about that. And probably the last...

...thing I point out on the our wife for adesign would be design systems. I know they're hot topics right now. I thinkthey have to be used and according to what you're trying to build, but ifyou're dealing with an enterprise product, then absolutely you need one,and you need somebody who knows the software, whether it's sketch or Figmanor x, D, like which one is best for my team, because they all have pros andcons of them. I personally like Figa. If I had a rate them might say, FIGmaketch in x, t would be how we use it. But again it really depends on thecustomer and what their like teams are. Working with, but design systems areare super important because it helps to align all of the different challengeswith the product, whether it's but in or colors and development. Can thenjust reference at the science system to pull out what they need and designerscan just all have a consistent voice and with their building versus you know,efn decided to make his button ten pizels wide by thirty pickels tall andJoey. Did it as a as a radio as a gradient rainbow inside of it right.Like you know, you need the consistency, so that's where again, it decides on bea massive eternal investment for when you're voting any probet. I amcompletely ignorant of design system. I, by time I am, is a design systemessentially like a UX version of like a brand style book,for example, I'm think that's real. I more living yeah yeah, that's a greatway to look at it and I think sometimes people get confused with a brandguideline versus a design system. So brand guideline would be like, let'ssay Coca Cola, that color red wherever you go, that color red. That isCocacola, no doubt about it. The fan size all that good stuff, but that'sthe branding when it comes to the design system, the buttons and all thatyou're not going to have the the Coca Cola such and all that stuff andeverything because it does doesn't work. It's not scalable. It's not legiblecertain sizes, so the design system would not only point out like how thatcan be used in the product, but also what are the other elements that aregoing to be consistent? Maybe there's a calendar. Maybe there's an invite yourfriend feature: How do we use third party Apis in this thing? How like? Howcould you stylized that to work in here? So that's where the design systembecomes critical, not to mention things like color things like interactionslike? How do you keep that consistent throughout the product and there's amultitude of ways of using them and it gets crazy nerdy? So you know raiseyour hand if, if I'm going to put you to sleep, but you can do something likeFiga to do all the visual layout work even Don prototyping there. If you wantand then from their handed off to the developers to bake into storybook,which story book would be your Ui repository where developers can justgrab certain selectors and then apply that into their into their ht orwhatever eve, react and everything will be consistent and they have like onecentral breathing place for it. So the designers around there looking at howthe interactions are, the developers are er getting code, but on the flipside the designers are working in figment to do their way out and thedevelopers can look in figment to see what's coming down the pane, Nexttreally good, and it's interesting like I just saw I just had a glimpse of hotlike so. I work in a software company, obviously- and I see x d designs fromdesigners that are kind of like they're interactive, and so we can see like. Ifyou do this, then then you get the next treatment et Cetera set. So so,sometimes when they're presented to me, because I've been I've been in thecompany for almost a decade, I've seen every iteration of the product in oneof the more prolific users in general, and so I'm often engaged you know, asyou were talking about. You know engaging different people within theorganization to figure out what to do next with a given situation, as as ourteam solves problems internally, I'm often engaged in that, and so thisprocess I just saw kind of how it gets from there to real life as you're kindof talking through. Then I think anyone else that you know works in softwareuses software, probably even though we didn't maybe follow all the detail thatyou offered there. I saw it as kind of like layers and steps from you knowsome of some of the things that we see through through real life. I also lovedin your response. You know, there's a...

...quote: I pulled off your website to bea good leader. You need to be a good listener and a, I think, that's comethrough in our in my time with you already, and it definitely came throughspecifically when you were talking about making sure to engage everyonewho is around the project and around the process, hearing people out andreally not settling for the PAT response, which is I mean you went tolike a negative, which probably happens. Often like that sucks right, why?Likewise, that's amazing, oh good, tell me more right, yeah yeah. Why do youfeel so favorably about this? What is it about that? I switch gears just alittle bit to you relate. You know I feel like. I have a sense of how youwork with clients but you're, also in a junk professor. What is similar, whatis different, what do you like more or less about connecting and servingstudents relative to connecting with and serving clients, so the I feel to my civil duty to sharemy knowledge, that's it and when I was and funny I was just talking to acolleague man about this. When I was younger, I wished I had someone thatwalk me through every part of the process. Now it's not to say I didn'thave that, but I think there are times when people just have pockets ofinformation and I'm looking to be that entire ocean,not just a stream. You know when it comes to stuff. So whenever I talk to astudent, I treated stud it no different than I would treat a CEO we're all inthe same pater. You could do something that I can't do and I can do somethingyou can't do. How do we complement each other on this right? So, for example,students can work all through the night. Those days are over, for me can't dothat now. Why shugo be doing too many things? The kids are beating me up year,nine year old, yeah right, but at the same time youropinion is valid because you're in a generation where I'm not- and I love toknow how to interact with something, but on the up side. I also understandfor like an older, like senior level perspective, that you have certainagendas that you have to hit or mark, as you have to hit in order to getthings done. So when it comes to teaching what I look to get out ofteaching. Is that I'm constantly looking for telling constantly, because I know way too manystartups that could fully take advantage of a individual whounderstands how to do something that could be like sort of like moulded intolike a company's image? So it's very often where at any one of my studentsthat are looking to get a job somewhere, I I probably know someone there and ifI don't, I probably have a connection to someone who's there and I'll justuse my name as to reference, and they know what I do they like. These peopleknow. Yeah Joey builds his stuff, so when I show it for opportunities it,maybe not all the time, but most of the time there's a check waiting. We got tofigure out how much we're going to Rin on that check. For me to you know, getyour work done, but I love being able to share my knowledge of those withthese the students, because I joke and say eventually one day you're going tohire me and I might just be pushing a broom at your office right or wipingthe window, but at least I'll still get a job. But at the same time I see themas a means of you're going to show me ways that I didn't think of using thesoftware you're going to show me things that I never thought could happen andthat's how I became such a great troubleshooter, because I see them likewow. How did you? How did you break that? That's amazing like how did youthink it worked that way, and that gives me an overwhelming advantage,because when I deal with the software with like larger companies, I alreadyhave an idea because I've seen it with the students they've made that mistakeand I've already kind of learned from it. So that's where I look to bridgethat gap between being the professor, but also being the student, because I'mlearning from the students just as much as they're leaning from I'm actuallyprobably learning more from them than they are from me, because I'm watchingwhat all these kids are doing when they're doing their stuff and gettingan idea like. Oh that's, an awesome idea or- or I a thinking of that way-and you know like you just try to deal with that with it- reminds me what youshared. There reminds me of the idea of how much gets trained out of us. Youknow just the idea that someone, my age,...

...probably looks at a variety ofinterfaces and tends to try to use them. You know the same way, whereas someonefresher to it is just going to be more probably open and creative, but I have I have a really funny thingwith that. So I've had the wonderful opportunity of of just working andstudying with all levels of society right, whether there's children withelitism different struction of the outism, how they do things to like kids,kindergarten, high school college and Hiero, and one of the loving things Ido to my students on graduation on the class is I'll. Give them a paper testand the pay pretest is amazing because I throw all kinds of stuff at them thatis so Naprava to design. So a first one, really silly. What's the color of anorange arch orange a they will pause and wonder? What do you mean? Is itKamela? Is it you know Spanish, all and like to it's orange? Let's you know,let's go, let's get the party going, so that's number one, and I love thatbecause now they're scared, because they're not because in the real worldthat stuff is what comes at you right away. So if you are ready for nextthing is an even siller one: what's heavier a ton of feathers or a ton ofbrick and now they're, not thinking because they'll say: Oh, it's brick,I'm like yeah a ton is a ton yeah. I don't care. If I got a ton of tournaisin a ton of duck bills, you know a ton. is a ton, that's it so that's it thenI'll do something. That's actually serious, where I'll give them a blankpiece of paper that has to keyboard on it, but no letters and I'll tell themfill out as much as you know and they're. Looking at the KYBER, like Idon't know, I'm like really. You use the damn thing all the time you don'tknow where the leaders are on the keyboard and you see them like they're,really, like their brains, are really really sprinting hard, and I think yes,I should be all come on. I mean you, you were expecting some designchallenge. Well, this is a challenge right. This is what is real life you're,going to be going through this stuff and probably the bigger thing that Ilove about it, and this goes to what you're saying earlier about beingconditioned. Is I ask them on the back of their test paper? Draw me theuniverse and, of course they freak out. I don't have enough paper in the signenough time and I joke, and I say you know what I've done this with kids ingrade school and they draw the moon and his cheese and the cow shopping over it,and I said they have not lost their creativity and I've only had onestudent. Her name is Havaii and I love that girl, because when she took thattest she did exactly that college student and just true she says you knowwhat this is it and what I sort of like dude. That's amazing, the only personthat ever went and did that in the class and yeah. So that's like one ofthe things I do with the courses you want to keep these these kids, notthinking like the same thing like you should, you know, don't be scared to bedifferent right. That's, like my background, was totally different. Why?Because I'm not I'm not scared to be different, I'm just this is what I doand you know you're getting love it. It's a great it's a great button on aconversation he is Joey Kill Rain of dead company a design company if you'veenjoyed this conversation with Joey. As I have. You might also like a coupleother episodes, episode hundred and Thirty Eight, which just releasedpretty recently with on and Tarnath. We talked about UX. We talked about humanfactors, he led research teams at face book and she's list honey. Well, he'snow, chief product officer medic in his background kind of like we teed thisone up. His background is in psychology, engineering and business like thisinteresting combination to solve problems, essentially through researchand design, and then so it's episode hundred and thirty eight and thenearlier episode. Ninety seven, with Bob Barry WHO's here in Colorado, springswhere I am he's principal UX researcher. At answer, lab and founder of the HumanComputer Mastermind Academy, that one was definitely straight down the UXtrack and some of the you know. We definitely touched on some of thosethemes here jolly, but that one was episode. Ninety seven, with Bob Barrybefore I let you go, I would love for... to give me a couple of few things.First is if you would think or mention something, who's had a positive impacton your life or your career. Second is to give a nod to a company or a brandthat you really appreciate for the experience they deliver for you as acustomer and then of course. Finally, where can people follow up with youyou're you you're using rink in a lot more, you said, you've got dead companyCOM, or is it dead that company, I'm not sure so tell people where they canfollow up in the sure sure thinks yeah so we'll start off with first one,which is impact on my career and God there's a good Julian people right. Imean coming out of Philly. The challenge in Philly was who's adesigner like what is that right, and there was only I mean just besides myfamily, outside of my family, directly cross the trap. For me. There's thisGuy Miciotto and Mike was a second father to me. He taught me how tostretch canvas out in the street. Ye Hey here say, stretch campus and it wasamazing I and he had always been someone that gave me an overwhelmingamount of confidence in myself, which I think a lot of designers struggle withconfidence and he'd. Also give me a bit of advice to say you know I want you towrite down. The name of all your friends at are have that. You have inyour life right now and look at that list. Ten years later- and I didn'trealize I was like nineteen like what then whatever so I wrote down like abunch of people and it's amazing, because there's only a handful of thosepeople that I was talking to afterwards, because yet you know your career, youstart to go in different directions like I'm still friends with them, but Idon't talk to them as much. Why? Because I'm like my career is taking methis way, but then there's someone like fret, Shamley friend Chimlen was givingmy second internship. He was a huge inspiration. He actually guided methrough a lot of stuff with design at the beginning. But then there's likeone of my one of my best friends from philly mix. A AGI is companies, sobranch he's. Given me a lot of insight and just how to run my business, youknow what I should be looking out for and we've always been thicker thieves,but we we go back to grade school too, is even more amazing. Well then, me andwhite, and we don Gato, he's always been astrosser tion. A guy keeps me constantly pushing to meet more peopleand see new products that are out there, and I leave with one last person who isJessica Johnson, who I study with her at the Goldman Sah Program, the ten K SB program and she, whether she realizes or not, gives me a lot of insight andinspiration how to run a business and she went to a security company likeactual security guards. But she in all her like talks that I've had with herand stuff. She always gives me some tippets. Where again, I don't think sherealized how much of an impact she has on me when she does that awesome, soyeah yeah and as far as a brand. I appreciate man. There are like a Giglioof them, but I would say that the ones that I really like has to be with mebuild in the cars, because I'm not I'm not a mechanical me. We can worries,probably a better name for me, but and talking with people like jags or withsome on racing. I think their experience is also or even advancedOrto right, that the people have always been open to listen to Babes. Justpeople I meet with, but they've always been open to help me get what I needand it's the full customer experience. Where show the product give you thespeck, you try it on. He realize. Oh, I forgot something and they've been veryaccommodating so yeah. For me, I'd have to go totally odd to get into like thecar related stuff and because of that entire, encompassing experience thatthey've given awesome. How can people follow up with you? Where can theyconnect with you? Where can they learn more about the work that you and yourteam do sure sure? So Url is ded. Digital experience es in that companyis O. I can get me some dead, dark company. You can reach me at Joseph atthat company. I guess you could also reach me. A JOIA kill Ranco, that's e!!that might even better is my first name at last name. Another way to find me aswell or link, then just look for kill, ran, there's not too many joy. herinsout in the world, so that might be a very easy place to find as well or justgo to Google put in joy, kill right and you'll you'll find me and then somehowyou get to see my magical face. That's awesome! You can also see his magicalface by going to bomboost, we put up...

...short write ups for these. As we dropin video clips, you can check out the space that he's been doing. These videocalls on and check out the full. We also embed all the audio there and it'sin a searchable player. So if there's some key words or ideas that that joymentioned that you want to jump to, you can go to that player, just search itand it'll bring it right to you right to that section. So, anyway, Joey. Iappreciate you. Thank you so much for spending this time with us, and I hopeyou have an awesome afternoon. Thank you so much for having Ethan. I reallyappreciate it clear communication, human connection, higher conversion.These are just some of the benefits of adding video to the messages you'resending every day. It's easy to do with just a little guidance to pick up theofficial book. Rehumanize your business, how personal videos, accelerate salesand improve customer experience learn more in order today at bombance Bock,that's B, O m B Bombo fuck thanks for listening to the customer experience.podcast remember the single most important thing you can do today is tocreate and deliver a better experience for your customers, continue learningthe latest strategies and tactics by subscribing right now in your favoritepodcast player, or visit Bom Bomo podcast t.

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