The Customer Experience Podcast
The Customer Experience Podcast

Episode · 7 months ago

184. Holding Curious Conversations to Hear the Voice of the Customer w/ Tonya Bjurstrom

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many organizations work hard to support their customers, but they don’t hold freeform, high-touch, one-on-one conversations with customers. Why? It makes everyone feel vulnerable.

In this episode, I speak with Tonya Bjurstrom, Voice of the Customer and Founder at Dirby, about elevating the experience of your customers by, well, asking them about it.

Tonya and I talked about:

  • Why the voice of the customer touches every part of your organization
  • What it means to cultivate curiosity about your own business
  • Why customers often provide better feedback in conversations
  • How KDIs (key desired insights) and KPIs overlap
  • How to embrace the vulnerability of human conversation  

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Subscribe, listen, and rate/review the Customer Experience Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play or Google Podcasts, and find more episodes on our blog.

It humanizes that data set when you have a specific customer name and feedback and you know potentially feelings associated, which we ask a lot of questions about how a product or a company or an experience makes customers feel. So those sorts of things can really shape and drive initiatives in a way that just a data set cannot. The single most important thing you can do today is to create and deliver a better experience for your customers. Learn how sales, marketing and customer success experts create internal alignment, achieved desired outcomes and exceed customer expectations in a personal and human way. This is the customer experience podcast. Here's your host, Ethan Butte. When we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe. This John, your quote came to mind the first time I talked with today's guest. She built a successful career and enterprise sales and sales leadership before becoming an expert in voice of the customer in be Tob and founding her own consultancy called Derby. How did she get there? By staying curious, by working to solve revenue problems and then finding them hitched to everything else in the company, like marketing messages, product development, sales process for tension in churn or something else. Today she'll share with us how data is part of most revenue solutions, what's missing from our data today and how to balance qualitative and quantitative feedback, among other topics. Tanya Buerstrom, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thank you, Ethan. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I really enjoyed that first conversation and no joke, I went I immediately went in googled after that conversation. I knew that there was like a string connecting everything in the universe. Quote. I didn't remember how it was actually phrased or who exactly said it, but I ended up finding it. Does that resonate with you at all? It absolutely resonates, and I love John Yere, but I've never heard that quote before, so I will be copying that for you for sure. Well, yeah, and I think it really does fit the work that you do, which, of course, we'll be getting into. That all of this stuff is connected in so just in this a purpose of the podcast is to kind of break down the silos, create understanding, a shared conversation or collaborative work, etc. And I'm assumed that that's part of many of the solutions that you bring the companies that you're working with. But before we get into all of those things, tell me what customer experience means to you. Like when I say that, what does it mean? You know, to me, customer experience is the cumulative interactions that a customer has with any company that they do business with. So from the very first time that they interact with the brand, whether it be meeting with the salesperson or, you know, hearing about them from a colleague or finding them in a web search, from that very first interaction until, you know, the the end of the customer life cycle. That is the whole of the customer experience. Customer experience is not customer satisfaction. Customer Satisfaction is, you know, a point in time and I think that you've, you know, unfortunately, too many companies get caught up in in the customer satisfaction piece and loose sight of the the customer experience. Absolutely in the in general, as you're going into companies and exploring their problems and opportunities, do you prefer to see or do you recommend customer experience as an ethos that pervades every corner of the organization and every person, or have you seen it successfully deployed as in a title or even in a team? I think that depends, right, the great and not the...

...avoidance answer, right. But yeah, it does depend. It depends on the size of the organization that you're looking at. It depends on the type of product, how integrated that product is to a customer environment. You know, the more integrated to a customer environment the product is, then the more integrated the customer experience needs to be with the organization providing the product. So, you know, I think when we look particularly at B Toc and be to be, and you know the business that I operate in is is be to be, but I think be Toc in a lot of ways has led led the innovation and regard to customer experience, and be to be can learn a lot from what they're doing and I think that they do a really good job of segmenting in this and applying, you know, applying customer experience within the organization where it needs to be, and I you know be to be needs to do that as well. Yeah, you you know customer experience, do you feel like it's new language for old ideas, or do you feel like it's a new thing? Because I love what you should share there on the relationship between be tob and B Toc and the idea of, you know, the integration with the with the product experience. Is this all new language for old ideas, or is this a new discipline? Like how do you regard that? Oh, I love that point. I think it's a new I think it's new language for old ideas and I think we need a new language because it's it's a new environment. You know, I think that because we have so much access to technology and automation. I mean, in a lot of ways companies can not not talk to their customers at all. Right, not sure how long they would be companies, but the technology is there to do it. And if that's the approach that is taken, or if you're trying to find the right mix, the right balance of approach between leveraging technologies and efficiencies and data sets with still maintaining that connection to a customer, those are new challenges. So yeah, I think it is new language for old ideas because it's a new environment. Well, it well done. threaded that really nicely. Let last thing here and then I'll give you an opportunity to kind of describe a little bit as an overview for me and for listeners, what you're doing at Derby and who you're trying to serve and what problems you're helping people with. Last thing you're still in this kind of CX intro zone, is voice of customer. Give a little bit of definition for that. It's come up a number of times on the show. We've only had a couple episodes specifically about voice of customer, but it's a background theme all the time for folks listening. Give as concise a definition as you can. And how does that relate to x? Sure you know, for me, voice of the customer is feedback that comes directly from the customer that build insight for companies to leverage. So that feedback can come in a variety of ways and companies need to make sure that they're applying the feedback in the, you know, in the appropriate sense that they have, if it's quantitative data, that they have context around it, if it's quality atative data, that they are making sure that there's action that's happening there. So you know, that's really how I see Voice of the customer is its feedback that generates insight and it comes directly from the customer. Love it. And so then, I guess we would use it in a variety of different ways. I feel like I'm getting a head here. We'd use it in a variety of different ways, perhaps to influence and improve the experience our customers are having. Yeah, that I mean, that's definitely you know, for me that's a requirements type...

...of way. So you know, when I'm when I'm going to work with a company, there's often a variety of different challenges that they're facing and so, you know, the my first job really is to, I guess, what I would say, cultivate curiosity. You know, you mentioned curiosity being a big piece of the work that I do and that it's it's so true. You know, I need my clients to become curious about their business, curious about what assumptions they have made. And so, you know, the to get the buy in from a customer to participate and the type of programs that Derby puts together. You know, there needs to be there needs to be a win when it needs to be a reciprocal type of activity. So working to improve the experience of the customers a given. That has to happen from there. There is, you know, there are all different ways that, you know, the voice of the customer can impact an organization. It can impact how the sales process works. You know, I've had I've had clients to have had issues with the sales process and deals getting stuck in the pipeline, and so going to the customers that experienced that that sales process and understand or understanding where the critical points were is really helpful in improving efficiencies and closing deals. Product Development Right, having priorities around product development. So, you know, technologists are amazing, my husband's and our software architect so I have a great appreciation for it. But you know, because he you know, his vision of where products should go may not be aligned with the vision of where the customers want to see it. Are Not only, you know, the vision of where the product should go in the next year, but what about him five years making sure that the companies staying on the right path with the roadmap messaging? All sorts of different ways that that customer insight can drive positive change within a an organization. Awesome. I feel like I got a little bit ahead there as a reset care, you tell folks what's going on at Derby. Who's your ideal customer? What problems you solve for them? Like? Who are you engaging on these themes that we've tied up? Sure so, Derby is the voice of the customer for B to be and what that means is that we work closely with our clients to identify what we call Katie Eyes. What are the key desired in insights that our clients would like to uncover from their customers? who better to talk about the customer experience, product development, sales and the people have already bought your product? So we identify what those Katie eyes are and then we put together programs that leverage high touch, one on one phone conversations with customers acting as a third party. Were able to create a space where customers feel very comfortable providing candid feedback and were, you know, very experienced. We Love Awkward Silence, which is something that is underappreciated, I think, by most people who have these types of conversations and we're able to, you know, generate feedback and then turn that into insight that our customers are able to leverage and sometimes really dramatically change their business and improve whatever those insights are that they were looking for. Awesome, all kinds of be to be, all kinds of be to be. You know, really it is all kinds of be to be. The primary, I guess where you would say sweet spot is for companies whose products are really integral to the success of their customers business. And I say that because there needs to be enough of a enough of a reason for these, you know, for these customers to give us twenty to thirty minutes of time to talk about their experience. Right, so you know their needs. There needs to be at least enough of a motivation for those customers to want their...

...bender partner to succeed, for their experience to be important enough to have that conversation. But aside from that, any any any size, be tob I mean we can do subsets, we can do full customer bases, just depends on what the needs are. Love it several questions, but I'll only ask one of you feel and have experience that one to one customer interviews, you just described him, twenty to thirty minutes, not by phone as a third party. Why is that so important? So for people and what I'm asking here is on behalf of a person or a team or a company that's thinking. Well, you know, we have sea set, we have our NPS scores, we read the you know, we read the comments on them. We follow up on, you know, cancelation feedback or customer satisfaction surveys. So we kind of close that loop. You know, one to one customer interviews sound like heavy lifting and unscalable and all these other things that we tell ourselves. Make that argument. Sure. So the type of conversations that can happen, particularly with an experienced third party, whether it be Derby or whether it be somebody else, are not going to happen within a comment field, within a sea sat survey with you know, you're definitely not going to get it from an NPS right. All of those tools are absolutely important, they're really valid. But once you collect all of that data and once you get, you know, customer experience comments and, you know, you pull all that data in and analyze it, you still need context and that context comes from freeform, high touch one on one conversations. And the other thing that happens with these conversations is it is a nurturing experience for customers. So you know, the other piece of customer experience. The other term that is used often is customer nurturing right, and it is, you know, on a regular basis, I would say, in almost every interview at the completion, the customers that I've spoken to, that my team has spoken to, are thinking us for taking the time to collect their feedback and they're very appreciative of their vendor partners for investing in that oneonone experience because they are so used to, you know, that the automated type of tools that are used. So that's that's the difference. I love it. It's such an interesting dynamic. That peace that you added at the end. I mean obviously the context missing from so much of our quantitative data in general that a oneliner is not going to satisfy. But this, this other piece of I now feel invest did in, seen, heard, appreciated, valued. My voice matters. You would never say this to yourself, consciously probably, but even you know I'm now co creating the future of this thing that's helpful for me or my business. It's just such an interesting thing to add that to any kind of a life cycle design or a customer experience process of creating these one to one moments that are unscalable but yield things that are really not able to be captured any other way. You're right, you know, it's what that is. One of the things that I say is, you know, customers have a vested interest and the success of their valued partners and what we do is create opportunities for them to be a part of it. And you know from these conversations we're often able to get customer testimonials. Were able to customer referrals, we're able to get joint promotional opportunities. Were, you know, able to answer questions, or at least have our have our clients, come back to customers...

...and answer questions they've never been asked before because they haven't created this kind of space to have them asked. So, you know, from a scalability standpoint, you know, the larger organizations have the benefit of really large data sets on their customers, you know, and so you are going to be able to pull a lot more insight from those large data sets for small to midsized organizations, and that's a lot more difficult. And so this type of approach, even though it can work for any size organization, those small to midsize organizations who have the opportunity to have these kind of conversations with, you know, almost every maybe every customer. Leverage that leverage, you know, leverage the size of your organization and those and you know, we really see anywhere from fifty two a hundred percent participation in the customers that are asked to interview and or to participate in the interview process, which is pretty surprising to most of the you know, most of the clients when when we first start discussing the programs. But it's you know, when you when you approach it the right way, you can get that level of participation. Yeah, and it's a reflection to that participation. Ary is a reflection of what you observe, that people are appreciative of the opportunity. Yeah, okay, still have multiple questions and you just tied one up, so I guess I'll go to it. You mentioned, you know, the right people. Like who are the right people? Let's say we're not. Let's say we're dealing with few enough people or customers that we don't have this massive data set like you described. Yeah, we're not small enough that we could actually reach out to every single one of our customers in a reasonable amount of let's put us put ourselves somewhere in the middle there. What are a few tips on for someone listening that's thinking like, okay, I want to put together a program internally or with a third party to start, aren't doing more of this interviews? Not just kind of, because because typically when I hear customer interviews, is typically on a specific need basis. Like you know, we have a few ideas about this new about a few different past week could go down and developing this aspect of the product or service. Let's go talk with some customers in general. How would you advise people to find the right people? Because the other thing I'm sensitive to hear and blending into the question is, you know, how do you make sure that you're not overreacting to outliers and those types of things? So I guess it's a my blended question is, yeah, how do you know you have enough people that you're doing one on one interviews with, and how do you know that they are the right people, or how do you determine that they're the right people in advance? So the the first place that I always start in regard to who you should talk to are the customers that model the type of customer you want more of. Right. So, of your customers, who are the most profitable? Who are within the industries that make the most sense for you to pursue? You know, who are the least painful? Right you know, start their start with who are the type of customers that you want more of? From there, if you know you are right, you do have to be careful to make sure that you are not just being, you know, kind of pushed around by outliers within, you know, within this quality qualitative data. So you want to make sure that you're matching it up. You're matching it up with quantitative data, you're matching it up with few back that you're hearing from your employees. You know, you really need to make sure that you're looking at that full that full context. Then from there it's going back to those Katie eyes, those key desired insights. What is it that you were trying to gather from this particular program what is your particular initiative or your particular challenge? And make sure that the customers that were reaching out to to participate in the program that they they make sense, that they match up with what those initiatives are. So those are the steffs that I go through and guiding clients on who they should...

...who they should include. Awesome. I'm doubling back a little bits and so I'm going to make a try to stitch a couple things together. So correct me and then I promise I'll turn into a question that you can answer after correcting anything I get wrong. So you work with some you work with a client, you develop some Katiei's key desired insights. Yep, you select some of the right people, let's say the most profitable and the least painful customers, who have some who you expect, reasonably expect through past qualitative or quantitative data, would have something to contribute on the topic. You're shooting for twenty to thirty minutes, which I assume is an intentional number. With all that set up, I assume you're developing either a question set or a conversation outline. Like talk about this. How do you, how do you in the folks on your side of this, this campaign or project, develop and execute the conversation through questions or through an outline? So we develop a question set that acts as an outline and the questions are strategically phrased and ordered right. So we start off with the you know, the softball warm up, fact based questions, right, get people settled in, and we're very careful to make sure that we're not asking questions that are, you know, the standards. They're not closed endo questions, right, they're not leading questions. But we're also really careful to make sure that we aren't asking questions that are based upon assumption, and that's something that we work really closely with our clients on. So after we establish those Katis, you know, we look at it and we make sure that if a client, for example, has a question of pricing, right, that it is happened on more than one occasion where a client asks a question on pricing based on the fact that they believe that they need to discount every every product or every sale in order to be competitive. Right, okay. Well, I always ask if you validated that assumption. You know, do you have data to illustrate that? Yes, if you would not have reduced your price, you would not have gotten that deal. Most of the time that answer is no. So we take a step back and we phrase a question around pricing that doesn't make the assumption that the solution was too expensive and that's why it had to be discounted. So that's just one example of, you know, where we challenge assumptions and truly open it up so that the customer has the option to provide feedback that is based on their experience, not based on what our assumption of their experiences. On the duration twenty to thirty, what I would assume there is that it's enough time to get into some real nuance, but it's also respectful of the person's Times. You're not asking for, say, forty five minutes or an hour. That's exactly right, although it's so we schedule thirty minutes with the customer for the interview and it is scheduled. You know, this is something that I think is important for these types of programs. Is it does need to be scheduled. It's not a okay, I'm going to call and see if I can catch in get five minutes. You know, again, there's an appropriate use for that type of strategy, but not for this. It needs to be a scheduled discussion. But on our side, me and my team, we book sixty minutes so that if that conversation goes over, we've got, we've got time for it and it often does go over. I think the longest interview I had, and I had to cut the customer off, was almost ninety minutes. It's a great conversation, but I did have another call. So yeah, people are very they really are willing to give that thirty minutes and we have ten to twelve questions that we are absolutely able to get through in that time. That answers in a way another question I had,...

...which was, you know, how much do you stick with that set versus, to go back to a theme or yours, curiosity, this idea of asking good follow up questions, talk about kind of the the art of managing insights that the customer needs, but then also the freedom to pursue curiosity in the context of, you know, what you're trying to do for the client. Yeah, you know, it's early on when I started, when I very first started these programs, that that was probably one of the greatest challenges was being able to find that balance and that's where really where those Katie eyes came from. Right. So the questions we have are an outline and we let those, you know, drive the conversation towards those Katie eyes. So oftentimes what we find is, if we've done our job and we've done a good enough job of creating key desired insights that you know that that are relevant and fit the challenges of the organization right now, those align with the feedback that the customers want to provide. So it's the Katie eyes were where we really developed what we needed in order to find that, find that balance. So priority is always for the customer to be able to provide whatever feedback they want to provide, but Bakatiiye and the customer feedback tent to match up much more often than they don't. Really good. Okay, so another assumption. After twenty minutes or ninety minutes or likely dont were in the middle lead. You've got a lot. I assume you're recording these. I assume you have transcripts. I assume you have a lot of qualitative feedback. Answer this, not just maybe for your own process, but also try to translate it for again for a listener, like when you have a set of intentionally collected qualitative feedback that's in like a similar vein or on a similar topic or for a similar purpose. We're a couple things that you've learned in the process of dealing with large amounts of qualitative feedback, like how do you organize it? How do you turn it into something useful? How do you report it back in like a summary Fashion? What's maybe a bit deeper deliverable? Where does it intersect with some of the quantitative feedback that might be kind of along the same liner vein? Yeah, so you do with all of this inpation, like how do you make it useful? You know, what makes it useful is delivering it in multiple ways so that, dependent upon the person that is reviewing it, they have a format that works for them and matches up to what they're, you know, what their position or their role is within an organization. So, you know, we deliver three different levels of information. First is the notes, right, so every single question, what are the detailed notes and responses to every single question that is asked? Our recommendation is that whoever's responsible for the relationship with the customer or responsible for the product that we were exploring from product development of roadmap issue, or the person that's responsible for customer experience, right. So, you know, whoever needs to read that detailed view that they do that we also then have an interview summary. So there is a summary based on, and that summary gets written immediately after each interview, of the key points of that discussion and you know how we align with those key desired insights, what feedback we you know, was pulled from that interview to provide insight to support those initiatives. And then, after all of the data is collected and we find the common threads and we find...

...what specific areas are going to require the most assistance, the most follow up based on these, you know, the the interviews, then it's an executive summary and that executive summary details, you know, specifically each key desired inside what was addressed and then you know any other common threads that came through. So that's what we have found to make it most helpful and most beneficial. You know, we don't really do a whole lot of a line meant with the quantitative side of things. Our clients will typically tend to do that, but what we find more often than not is this is follow up to that quantitative side. So it's more that the you know, the quantitative work that has been done needs context and we're pulling that into our indoor program love it. You just teed me up for another thing. But that's about perfect, which is great. It's so that makes so much sense. You're you're you know you're pursuing some of these. You know you're probably developing the Katie eyes in part off of some observations made of quantitative feedback and you're looking to validate them or, as you said, what's missing from so much of it as context, you're looking to like hang some color and flavor and texture and meaning onto the the bone or the frame of a quantitative set of feedback. Yeah, very much so. Yeah, and and it goes back to, well, actually goes a lot to, I know, one of the things that that you and bomb them have focused on, right, which is that human connection. Right, it is. It's really easy to get lost in a data set and forget that a data set is not your customer, right, you know, it definitely informs how you need to behave and how you need to interact with your customers, but it's not the customer. So it humanizes, I think it humanizes that data set when you have a specific customer name and feedback and, you know, potentially feelings associated, which we ask a lot of questions about. How a product or a company or an experience makes customers feel. So those sorts of things can really shape and drive initiatives in a way that just a data set cannot. So important. I mean, in my observation, feelings are the precursor to thoughts and actions. Most quantitative feedback is starts with actions. We're tracking actions and behaviors and things people do or don't do and how often and when and where and all that the we might support them with some thoughts, right, we might ask them for things, but this feeling piece is so important. It's funny that question I ask off the top. You know, when I say customer experience, was that mean to you? You know the essence of it, after asking that question well over a hundred and seventy times now to a variety of people with a variety of backgrounds. Is the essence of it is how we make people feel, you know, just like the essence of brand is something like what people say about you, whether or not you're in the room. Right. And so I love that focus on getting more to the heart of the situation by interacting directly in an air quoting for listeners unscalable way with one to one interviews. That's one of the reasons you probably go to a third party as well as a the expertise, to make sure that you're not asking leading questions, to develop the right structure, to have a process for extracting the Kadi's from you know what exists in the people that exist within the organization, just having the objectivity in the expertise to do that well. So, with that a slightly different tack here, share with us a little bit of the arc from successful individual contributor and enterprise sales to sales leadership and management to voice of the...

...customer in bb yeah, so you mean within my background? Yeah, like you're obviously you have anyway. We all know what we've learned from you so far and what that suggests about your depth of passion and interest in expertise in doing this type of work. But give us a little bit of color on how you got there for being a sales pro so I have been in sales pretty much forever. I started in sales and I was fifteen. Had A friend in high school who's father managed the Advertising Department for our local newspaper and he had a telemarketing project and he brought a few of us, you know, a few of us into do it and I loved it. I was great. You know, my friends were kind of goofing off, you know, they didn't enjoy it at all, and I just took to it, and so that became my my job up through high school is I was I did telemarketing sales for the classified department. So I would go through neighboring communities newspapers and called the see if I could get, you know, somebody who placed the ad for their pickup truck into our newspaper as well and other things. So and then that grew into me actually doing some business to business sales and selling advertising to some of the local businesses, which then, when I went to college, I ran the Advertising Department for our college newspaper, which, with my background and actually working within a real newspaper, meant that we started getting complaints because we had too many ads in the College newspaper, which was pretty funny. And then, absolutely do you do good at your job? Yeah, right, and so I stayed within media sales for a couple years after college and then moved into technology sales and that's where I spent the bulk of my career up until launching Derby and I did play a lot of different roles within there, as you had mentioned, from Channel Development to business development, to working within the channel to VP of sales marketing, so building a sales team for a start up. And you know, when I was approached to do some consulting for companies that we're having struggle, software companies that were having some struggles with their sales process, you know what I found in going and we're working with each one of these organizations, is that, you know, my instinctive skill set that came from, I think, just my natural skill set as well. To start with, conversations with the customer is it's just not something that a lot of organizations were doing. They were very good to their customers, they cared a lot about it their customers, they worked hard to support their customers, but they weren't asking their customers questions to help guide the direction of the organization. And that was when I decided to focus der beyond voice of the customer, because a lot of organizations they either a don't do it because they feel vulnerable doing it. I think that's it's interesting. I'm a fan of Brinday Brown and I'm reading her newest book outlets of the heart, and there's a section on curiosity and it talks about how vulnerability is really tied to curiosity and I never quite thought of that before, but it's really true. You know, putting yourself in a position to say, wow, I'm not sure that I really know this or this might you know this conclusion I'm coming to, it might be based on assumption not on actual insight. That's really for a lot of people. That's a vulnerable place to be, and so having those sorts of conversations with customers, regardless of what size of an organization you are, it makes some people feel vulnerable. So, you know, having that the third party have those conversations removes that...

...component. Also removes it from the customer. The customer can feel very uncomfortable or vulnerable providing definitely negative feedback, but sometimes even positive feedback to a company. So removes that as well. I have a good friend and colleague, Anita Nielsen, who she always says that be to be is still hh, it's still human to human, and that is that's just really relevant the work I do now and what I've always done throughout my career. Yeah, it's really interesting I had not made the curiosity vulnerability connection before either. Yeah, the way you describe it also makes me think a little bit about humility. But I've read a couple of Brune browns books and I use her definition of vulnerability all of the time, because using a service like bombomb can make a lot of people feel vulnerable the first time to like this. Yes, comfort like in her definition, by the way, is is the feeling of the disc the uncomfortable feeling of risk, uncertainty and emotional exposure, and so I can absolutely hear that in you know, trying to get honest feedback from customers, I can see how you would feel that way or so. Yeah, I mean I know for sure, and I did, and I thought a bombomb as well, in the sense of I definitely felt vulnerable when I, for very first started using video and I would say I still do. I would say I still haven't fully over hum that. Much much better than I was several years ago. But yeah, there's there's a lot of that there and I think that that the fact. And kind of circling back, I guess, to some of the things we said earlier in the conversation, where there is the option to keep communication detached just as stepped removed. It's, you know, individuals as well as organizations need to make sure that they aren't, you know, they aren't taking that easy road right that they do need to embrace that vulnerability which, you know, who knows? Maybe that's one of the reasons that Britney is brand bring a browns work has spoken so much to not only people on a personal level but on a business level, because it really does apply. Yeah, I love the connection you just made between another term I use all the time. Now we're doing this parallel for folks listening. I'm all excited about this because we're making parallels between Tanya's work in VOC and some of the things that I've learned and taught and practice and experienced over the years at Bombom with regard to turning your camera and for simple personal video messages. Is that the easiest thing to do, in the most self protective and ego protective thing to do, is to continue to hide behind the cloak of digital anonimity, continue to go to the keyboard rather than the record button and continue to send out faceless, typed out text you have absolute, complete control over, because in some cases you can edit it even after it's published. In other cases you can fuss over it and change every letter or punctuation mark before you send it and you can have all this anxiety around it. There's a lot of research around that too. But this idea that it's just easier and safer for me cognitively and emotionally to do the easier, more anonymous, less vulnerable, less human, less connective, less meaningful thing. For me, that's recording a video message and sending it to one or five or five hundred people. For you, that's picking up the phone and having a half an hour meaningful conversation with someone where you want to get their honest feelings about what's going on. Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting because for you know, for me, having those conversations with customers, because they aren't my customer, right, it's the it's my clients customer. That is...

...a much less vulnerable space for me. What's much more vulnerable for me is sometimes having to go back to my clients to deliver that feedback. Right, that's where my vulnerability comes in and we're you know, my experience and expertise in those sorts of conversations is really important and you know, I have, you know, a client that I've worked with WHO IT'S A smaller business and he had some sort of personal act interaction with almost every customer and getting over that, that concern, that vulnerability of even having me have these conversations. You know, we you know, I joke to them. I'm like, you know, will, we will review the reports over either a cocktailer, a couple tea, a cup of tea, based on your preference. Right, we'll make it. Will make it easy, but it's that's where that that's another aspect that that comes into play. So good. Yeah, I could imagine it's a lot easier to deliver really positively the child you, whether as a parent or as a leader or a manager or, in this case, you know, bringing third party collected qualitative data back to a company. For folks who are listening, if you want to learn more about getting confident comfortable, I use that word with an asterisk because I spend a lot of time in conversation with this person and she really prefers confidence. If you want to learn more about confidence in a sales role or confidence on camera, I would recommend that you listen to episode one hundred and fifty six of this podcast, it is with Julie Hanson, who is kind enough to introduce me to Tanya and made this happen. So thank you again, Julie, for for all that. She also gave us hours and hours and hours of her time as a contributor to our book human centered communication. So we interviewed her. Steve Passonelli and I interviewed her together on episode one hundred and fifty six. We called it and actors guide to authentic videos, and we talk a lot about confidence and comfort and vulnerability. And she is also, like Tanya, a person who started her career as a sales professional and sales manager before finding founding her own consultancy. And so it truly does is help people get confident and more effective on camera, in particular sex one hundred and fifty six. Earlier, on episode one hundred and Sixteen, I talked with another person who did what you did, Tanya, which is took a problem she had in her role, her role was as a as a product manager, and ended up founding a company on it. She founded a software company called LOOP VOC as to create the solution. Sets episode one hundred and sixteen with Lauren Culbertson. We called that closing both loops with the voice of the customer. Before I let you go, Tanya, this has been super fun, super engaging. I I love the surprising twist at the end where we spend some time on vulnerability, because I think it's really honest. I think it's current. I'm really glad that someone like Brune Brown can take her learning and teaching and create a business book out of it that becomes a best seller, that these words have come up in acceptable in popular business culture and conversation, because they are truly distinctly human and we all experience them. So I've really enjoyed this, as well as learning more about how you go about the work that you do in the importance of it. But before I let you go, few opportunities for you. First, I would love for you to think or mention someone who's had a positive impact on your life for your career. Second, you can give a shout out or or a nod to accompany your brand that you appreciate for the experience they deliver for you as a customer. And then, of course, in conclusion, how can people follow up and learn more about you and Derby Dirby by the way, yes, so if you need prompting on those, let me know, but you can start with someone that you appreciate. So it's interesting that you mentioned Julie, who is absolutely amazing and her booth look me in the eye was I have lots of dog tags and highlights through there. And so Julie and I are both part of a...

...group called women sales pros and it's a group of about fifty women. It's a select group. Most of us are in the US, some are international, but that group, the leader of the group is Laurie Richardson, with score more sales and she is just incredible. She is amazing. She has had such a great impact on how I have been able to build derby. I found her pretty early on when I launched launched the company, and what she is able to do within you know, her multiple roles that she serves, but she's, you know, she is put together a group of just rockstar professionals that are so generous with their time and with their support, and so I definitely, you know, want to give a shout out to her and you know the impact she's had on my business, as well as the impact that I know that she has had on so many other businesses. As far is a company that I would like to talk about, I you know, the first one that I think comes to mind that really blends that, you know, automation with humanity that we've been talking about here is chewy. So I don't know if you know them or not, but you know, if I'm not talking about Voice of the customer, I'm probably talking about my animals, to my to the Great Chagrin of mine, now older children. They just feel like they've been replaced, I think. But so I am a longtime supporter and volunteer of the Humane Society of the Pike's peak region, our local humane society, and so with that I've collected a number of my own animals over the years and you know, I enjoy being a customer of chewy because they make it really easy, you know, just from a online shopping and online commerce, their auto delivery, it's great. It's really easy, but they also really understand the human component of it. I have a friend who lost beloved fifteen year old pet passed away and she forgot to stop the autoship on on her chewy and when she called to tell them that she needed to stop it and kitch you return. They not only went ahead and refunded or money, said, you know, don't worry about, you know, returning the bag of food. If you want to give it to your local shelter, that'd be great. But a week or so later she also received a sympathy card from them, a handwritten sympathy card for the loss of her beloved pet. And so it's that those sorts of efforts that, for an organization, even one as large as Chewy, it makes a difference. They've empowered their team to connect with their customers in a way that I haven't seen a lot of other other organizations do. Great Company. They when you mentioned chewy right away, I learned about them from another guest on the show, Brittany Hodak, who teaches companies how to create super fans and Chewy is one of her favorite Gotos, and it's for all the reasons to just describe these these human moments, honoring people as individual people and, you know, again going back to the essence of CX being something along the lines of how we make people feel. You know, making someone feel seen, heard, understood and appreciated is about as good as you can make any individual feel and of course that ties back to your whole process of going in depth in these conversations to understand how people feel about product, services, companies and brands. If people have enjoyed this, which, if they're listening at this point, I'm going to go out on a limb and say they have. Up, how would you send people to follow up with you and to learn more about Derby, Tania? So you can definitely, definitely connect with me on Linkedin. Tanya Beer Stroum, there I think there's just me. I don't think there's another ton of your storm out there. Or you can go to Derby...

Solutionscom. Di. RBY SOLUTIONSCOM awesome. I'll link that up. I'll link up chewy and some other things. We always write these episodes up and include some video highlights at Bombombcom podcast. Tanya, thank you so much for the work that you do, thank you for sharing insights into that with us today, and thank you to all of you for listening. We have right inbox constantly foam. We constantly have messages coming in. Work emails just went up to one hundred and one. Have Ninety nine plus six hundred and seventy nine on ready e mails. We're here to talk about a major problem. My name is Kipbodner and I'm the chief marketing officer at help spot. I probably get ten to fifteen phone calls a day unwanted, and I probably get fifty a hundred emails a day unwanted. When I think about noise and trying to get that out of my life, I think about it through my most scarce resource, was just my time and attention. Is it worth my attention ever here versus like me, spending a moment with my son or cooking a meal with my son? The answers almost always know. We also know that the by product of that noise is feeling overwhelmed, feeling like there's not enough signal and that you feel discombobulated or confused. That's at least how I feel, so I also tried to protect myself from those feelings as well. Watch the trailer now for dear first name, a four part, first of its kind documentary series that explores how digital pollution is eroding our ability to communicate with each other and build trust. Coming this winter.

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